J. Krishnamurti Mind Without Measure Talks in New Delhi 1st Public Talk 30th October, 1982 `The Root Cause of Confusion'
This is not a lecture, but rather a conversation between two people, between you and the speaker, not on a particular subject, instructing and shaping your thought or opinions. We are two friends sitting in a park on a bench, talking over together our problems, friends who are concerned deeply with what is going on in the world, with the confusion, the chaos that exists throughout the world. I wonder if you have a friend with whom you talk, to whom you expose your own feelings, your concepts, your ideas, disillusionment, and so on. We are going to talk over together in that manner - exploring, enquiring, without any bias, in great friendship, which means, with great affection, respecting each other, without having some kind of hidden thought, hidden motives.
First, let us look at what is happening around us, outwardly, without any bias, not as an Indian, not as a German, Englishman, American or Russian. We are human beings, whatever country we belong to. One observes countries going through a great deal of confusion, great uncertainty; there is chaos. People have no direction. But, unfortunately, we are conditioned, we are confused, uncertain, insecure, and we try to find a solution in the past, go back to our own traditions. This is what is happening throughout the world. There are the fundamentalists who accept the Bible as their authority, the fundamentalists of Islam who look to the Koran. There are the fundamentalists who look to Marx. So, when we are uncertain, confused, greatly disturbed, we look to the past, to some kind of authority, some kind of book, to find a direction. Now, in this country, as you observe, there are too many books, too many labels. So, here tradition is uncertain. You have all the leaders, all the gurus, but all the so-called saints have not helped mankind.
What is the root cause of all this confusion? When one can find the cause, then one can end it. A cause has an end. We are asking what is the cause or what are the causes of this confusion, this lack of integrity, this sense of desperate degeneration. What is the root of all this? Most of us play with symptoms. We say it is due to overpopulation, bad government. Throughout the world it is the same - lack of leadership, lack of morality. These are all symptoms. One never asks what is the cause of all this. When we begin to enquire into the cause, each one of us will give different opinions. The more learned we are, the greater is the assertion of the cause or causes. But we are not very learned people. We are ordinary people, we are laymen, we are not very bright, very intelligent. But we are caught in this great turmoil that exists in the world and here in this country. Every nation, every group, is preparing for war. All countries, especially the industrial countries, are supplying armaments to the rest of the world. Nobody asks, `Why do we have to have wars, why do we have to kill each other, murder each other?' They are talking about stopping nuclear wars, but not ending all wars. Why have human beings reduced themselves to this condition? This is very important to ask. Why do we have to kill other people? Is it for your nation, for your particular group? We have accepted the idea of war as a historical process and it has become a reality. But the root of it is, we live in an illusion, illusion that our country must be protected. What is your country? What are you protecting - your house, your home, your ideas, your bank account? The whole world is degenerating, going to pieces, and we are not enquiring into fundamental causes.
Now, what is the cause? Is it that you have so far looked to political leaders, religious leaders, economic leaders with their particular ideas, with their particular systems, to help you, so that you are always depending on others to guide you, to tell you what to do? Is that the root cause of this, or do you blame the environment? The environment is the government having no proper leader, no righteous guru. That is the environment - something outside of you. Is that the cause of this, which means that you have relied entirely on authority - the authority of tradition, authority of books, authority of leaders, gurus, and so on? When you depend, you gradually become weak, you become feeble. You are incapable of thinking clearly. This is a fact. Newspapers tell you what to think. All the meetings, the discourses that you attend, instruct. So the lack of self-reliance, the lack of a sense of responsibility for oneself - that may be the root cause of all this confusion. We have become irresponsible because we depend.
Is it possible to be a light to oneself and not depend on a single person? You have to depend on the milkman, on the postman, on the policeman who keeps order at the crossroad. You depend on a surgeon, on a doctor. But inwardly, psychologically, one doesn't have to depend to think clearly for oneself, to observe one's own reactions and responses, if one can be completely a light to oneself. Do you understand what that means - to be a light to oneself? It is not self-confidence, not self-reliance. Self-confidence is part of selfishness. It is part of egotism. But to be a light to oneself requires great freedom, a very clear brain, not a conditioned brain. But to have an active brain, to challenge, to question, to doubt, that means to have energy. But when you depend on others, you lose energy.
So, let us proceed from that. Is your mind, your brain, conditioned? Do you understand that word `conditioned'? From the moment we are born, the brain is being conditioned, shaped by tradition, by religion, by the literature you read, by the newspapers, by parents. the brain has lived for millions of years. It has had great many experiences. It has faced wars, sorrow, pleasure, pain, agony, great disturbances. And it is conditioned as a Hindu, as a Sikh, as a Muslim, as a Christian. Why is it conditioned? We are enquiring seriously whether your brain which is conditioned - if you are aware of it - can that conditioning be resolved? Do we see actually that we are conditioned? Do both of us agree to this at least? If you are conditioned, it means your being becomes mechanical - you repeat that you are a Hindu, you are a Muslim, you are a Marxist, and so on. Your brain becomes mechanical, repeating the same thing over and over again. So, first, do we, two of us, talking together as friends, realize actually that our brains are conditioned? Then we ask whether it is possible to free the brain from being a Hindu, a Muslim, a Christian, a Marxist. We are human beings, not labels. But labels count a great deal. That is what is going on.
Where there is conditioning, there is no freedom. There cannot be love, there cannot be affection. It is imperative, absolutely essential for the future of humanity that we are concerned with the brain which is conditioned. If one is aware of that, then we can proceed to ask whether it is possible to free the brain. The relationship between the brain and the mind can come, is understood, when the brain is completely free. Then the brain is the mind. We will go into that later as we go along.
We are conditioned, and we are asking whether it is possible to be free. Don't say it is or it is not, because that will be absurd; whereas if you are enquiring, then you are learning through investigation. Where do you begin to enquire whether it is possible to free the brain from its conditioning, to enquire whether it is possible not to be a Hindu or a Muslim or a Sikh, but a human being with all the travails of humanity, the anxieties, the uncertainties, the depth of sorrow and pain? Do you begin to enquire from the outside or do you begin to enquire from inside? That is, is the outside world different from the world in which we live inside? Do you understand that question? The society, the morals, the outward world - is that different from you or have you created it? Please look at this: The world is you and you are the world. It is very important to understand this. In our disorder, in our confusion, in our desire for security, we have created a world outside of us as society, which is corrupt, immoral, confused, everlastingly at war, because we in ourselves are confused, we are in conflict.
So where do you begin, knowing that you have created this world? You have to begin with yourself, not with the alteration of the system, of the outer world. It means, not looking for a new leader, new system, new philosophy, new gurus, but looking at yourself as you are. Can you observe yourself as you would observe your face in a mirror? Can you observe your reactions, your responses, because your reactions and your responses are what you are. So let us begin to enquire there.
Life is a process of relationship. There is no life without relationship. This is a fact. You may be a hermit, you may be a monk, you may withdraw from all society, but you are related. As a human being, you cannot escape from being related. You are related to your wife, to your husband, to your children, you are related to your government, you are related to the hermit who withdraws because you feed him, and he is related to his ideas. So relationship is the basis of human existence. Without relationship there is no existence. You are either related to the past, which is, to all the tradition, to all the memories, to the monks, or you are related to some future ideation. So relationship is the most important thing in life. Do you see the truth of that, not verbally, not intellectually, but actually with your heart and mind?
We are enquiring what is your relationship with another, however intimate or not. Is it that you are from childhood hurt, wounded psychologically, and therefore, from that hurt. from that psychological wound, you bring about violence? The consequence of being hurt, inwardly wounded, is that you enclose yourself more and more in order not to be hurt. And your relationship with another then becomes very narrow, limited. We must first enquire whether it is possible to find out if you can never be hurt. What is the root of being hurt? What is the cause? When I say I am hurt, my pride is hurt, what does that mean? My teacher has hurt me, my parents have hurt me. We are all hurt. We are all wounded by an accident, by a word, by a look, by a gesture. So what is it that is hurt? You say I am hurt. What is that `I' which is being hurt? Is it not an image that you have built about yourself?
We are asking a very serious question: What is it that is hurt? The brain has the capacity to create images. The images are the illusions. We have illusions, war is an illusion; we accept it. You accept killing another human being, another life, as part of the image which you have. You have many, many images. And one of the images is, I am being hurt. We are enquiring what is the entity that is being hurt. The entity is the image that I have built about myself. I think I am a great man and you come along and tell me, `Don't be an idiot.' I get hurt. Where there is comparison, there is hurt. When I compare myself with somebody who is more clever, more bright, more intelligent, that is, when there is measurement, there must be hurt. So please enquire whether you can live without comparison, without measurement. We are always comparing ourselves with someone. It begins at the school when the boy is told that he must be as good as his brother. That is comparison, that is measurement, and that process continues throughout life.
So, is it possible to live without comparison, without measurement? This is a tremendously complicated question. Because, the word `better' is measurement. The word `more' is measurement. Self-improvement is measurement. Find out whether it is possible to live without measurement, which means, to live without comparison. Part of meditation is to enquire into not becoming; becoming is measurement. Is it possible in our relationship with each other, however intimate it is, not to have measurement? That means your brain must be active in your relationship; it must enquire into your relationship, whether in that relationship there is hurt and that hurt brings about greater fear, greater enclosure within oneself, and therefore isolation. And as long as there is isolation, either outwardly or inwardly, there must be conflict.
We are saying the brain has been conditioned to isolation as a Hindu, as a Buddhist, and so on. To enquire into this question. whether the brain can resolve its own conditioning, we must enquire into relationship. What is your relationship with another, with your wife, with your husband, with your children? Begin there, near at home, not far away. You know, sirs, to go very far you must begin very, very near. To go very far you must put your house in order. Can you be aware, alert, so that you are watching your relationship and are learning from that awareness how you respond, what your reactions are? That is life, that is everyday life. That requires constant attention to every reaction, to every thought. But most of us are so lazy. We have become lazy because we are dependent on others.
We have, as two friends, gone into the question of relationship, and we will enquire further into the nature of that relationship. Is the human brain your brain, or is it the brain of mankind? This is really a very serious question. Is your brain an individual brain or the brain of humanity? When you say it is my brain, when you say it is my consciousness, is it so? Or is it the consciousness of mankind? Enquire into it. You suffer, you are uncertain, you are anxious, you are in agony, pain. That is what you are. You have belief, knowledge, character, and that is what you are. And that is exactly what your neighbour is. He is suffering, he goes through agony, sorrow, pain, trouble. So, is your consciousness separate from the rest of mankind? No, of course not. If you admit that, if you see the truth of that, then are you an individual? You may think you are an individual because you are dark, you are short, because peripheral activity makes you think you are an individual, but deeply, are you not the rest of mankind? When you realize that, the truth of that, you will never kill another, because you are killing yourself. Then out of that comes great compassion, love.
Audience: What is an impersonal action?
Krishnamurti: What is an impersonal action? First of all, what is action? What do you mean by that word `action'? Either you act according to a pattern, or act according to some idea, act according to your experience which is the past, or act according to some ideal which is in the future, or act according to your knowledge which is the past, or act according to convenience. So what do you mean by that word? The word means acting, not having acted, or will act. But action means acting in the present. Whether that action is correct, true, actual, depends on the quality of your brain, of your heart, not just theory. So, sirs, enquire into what is action. We are all acting from morning till night. You are sitting there and the speaker is sitting here. And you listen and he is speaking - that is an action. If you listen, that is action, or if you don't listen, that is an action. How you listen is an action.
What do you mean by impersonal? You see we have concepts. What do you mean by person - word, name, form? Are you an individual to call yourself personal and then ask, `Can I be impersonal?' Are you an individual? You all think you are individuals. Your whole tradition, religions, tell you that you are an individual. Are you? Are you not the result of centuries of human endeavour? You don't want to question all those things. You are afraid. If you are not an individual, what would happen to you? Individuality is a form of isolation and, therefore, we are all at each other's throat all our life. We have no love for each other. We talk about love of god, but we do not love each other. And besides, god is the invention of man. I know you all believe in god, but you have invented that entity. If god does exist, and if he has created us, what a miserable god he must be. You don't want to look at it that way. You worship an illusion and you like the illusion and think that in illusion there is security. And you are finding out there is no security in illusion. Your god has betrayed you and yet you worship him - the Christian god, the Hindu god, the Muslim god. It is all so absurd and childish.
So, let us find out for ourselves if we can be a light to ourselves, not depend on anyone psychologically, inwardly, not depend on your wife, your husband, or your guru, or a book, but live a life, free, full of vitality, energy, so that your brain is acting, not mechanical. Our brains have become now a form of computer. Please do enquire into a different way of living.
J. Krishnamurti Mind Without Measure Talks in New Delhi 2nd Public Talk 31st October, 1982 `Conflict, Duality and Observation'
We are going to talk over together this evening many things. One does not listen to another actually. If you do listen, there is always a defence, there is always a resistance to anything that is said, to something new. There is an immediate reaction to resist because it might be disturbing. So, there is an art of listening: to listen to what is being said, not interpret what is being said to suit your own convenience, to your own traditional language, but to listen to the word, the meaning of that word, to see that we understand each other. To listen, one has to have not only a certain quality of attention but also a sense of affection, a sense of trying to understand what the other fellow is saying. Communication is possible at depth only when both of us are concerned about the same subject, about the same ideas, or concerned about a certain thing. Then we are both in communication with each other. But if you resist, as perhaps you are going to resist a great deal of what the speaker is going to say, then communication is not possible. One has to learn the art of listening. When you listen to music which you like, there is no resistance. You go with it, you shake your head, you clap your hands, you do all kinds of things to express your appreciation, your understanding of the quality of the music, and so on. There is no form of defence, no form of resistance; you are going with it; you are flowing with it. In the same way, kindly listen, not to be instructed, not to be told what to do, but to understand what is being said.
So, please learn the art of listening, not to the speaker only, but to your wife, to your husband, to your children, to the birds, to the wind, to the breeze, so that you become extraordinarily sensitive in listening. When you listen, you catch up quickly, you don't have to have a lot of explanations, analyses and descriptions; you are flowing with each other. We are talking together as two friends sitting in a park, or in a wood, quiet, birds are singing, there's plenty of light coming through the leaves on the floor and there is a sense of appreciation of beauty. When you so listen, the miracle takes place. When you so listen, it is like sowing a seed. If the seed is vital, strong, healthy, and the ground is properly prepared, it inevitably grows. So one has to learn the art of listening. If you listen very, very carefully, you capture it so quickly, the meaning of what the other is saying. Perhaps many of you have listened to the speaker for a number of years, unfortunately; and you get used to it; you get used to his language, his gesture, how he looks and so on, and you gradually slip off. And you say, `Why haven't I, after years of listening to this man, changed?' It is because you have actually not listened with your heart, with your mind, with your whole energy. So, don't blame the speaker, but rather learn, if one may suggest most respectfully, the way of listening. There is great beauty in listening to a bird, to the wind among the leaves, and to a word that is spoken with depth, with meaning, with passion.
We were saying yesterday that the future of man is at stake, and that man has no existence in isolation - isolation as a nation, isolation as a group, isolation in religion, isolation as an individual and isolation in consciousness. For most of us thinking is individual. You think there is a difference, a division - your opinion against my opinion, my thought against your thought, or your husband's thought, or your wife's thought. But thinking is not individual. Thinking is the ordinary factor from the poorest, ignorant man to the great Nobel prize winner, the scientist. They are both thinkers. But we have the idea that your thinking is yours, whereas thinking is the nature of man. Be clear on this point. When you think, it is not your individual thinking, it is the capacity of your brain to be active and respond in words, in form, and that is the nature of man. But we have reduced thinking to my thinking as opposed to your thinking. Most of us have got strong opinions, bias, conclusions. We have experienced so much and we think it is our experience, our conclusion. When a new outlook is put before you, you refuse to look. But thinking is the nature of man.
Can we go on from that? When you observe what is going on in the world outside of you, you see that each country is isolating itself, each group is isolating itself - the Muslim, the Hindu, the Buddhist, the Tibetan, the Russian, the American, and so on, This factor of isolation is destroying the world, is separating humanity This is an actual fact that is taking place in the world. Then, inwardly, each of us think we are separate. Tradition, religion, all that has conditioned our thinking that we are separate human beings. We are separate in the sense you are a woman and I am a man, tall, short, white, black, and so on. But we are talking at depth; that is, human consciousness is general, is shared by all human beings. All human beings suffer, go through great agonies, shed tears, have the sense of loneliness, pain, anxiety, depression, uncertainty. The poorest and the most sophisticated, erudite human beings - all have this general factor. They all share this. This is so. So, our consciousness is not yours or mine. It is the consciousness of all human beings. It is very difficult for most people to see the reality of this, because we have been so conditioned. For Christianity, you are a separate soul. Here, among the Hindus, you reincarnate over and over again till you reach, god knows what. It is still the emphasis that you are a separate individual. Is that so? We are questioning. We have to find out, doubt, ask, which means you are listening without any defence, without any resistance to this truth. We are using the word correctly; it is the truth. You may, at the periphery, on the outside, have certain mannerisms, certain habits, certain tendencies, capacities, but if you move from the outer to the inner, we all share the same common issues. Unless we realize this, not verbally, not intellectually, but in our hearts, in our minds, in our blood, we are going to destroy each other.
We are capable of listening to the actual fact that our consciousness is its content; our consciousness is made up of its content. Isn't it? Look, a great many books have been written about consciousness. There are specialists about consciousness; conferences about consciousness are held all over the world. One has to enquire into the nature of one's own consciousness, observe the content, because without the content there is no consciousness. Are you following all this? Consciousness is made up of one's beliefs, one's tendencies, one's secret desires, anxieties, loneliness, and so on. There is the content which makes up consciousness. Without the content, there is no consciousness as we know it. If you observe your own consciousness, that is what you are; your consciousness is what you are. Your fears, your desires, your pleasures, your loneliness, depression, anxiety and all that, that is what you are, what you believe.
So the content makes the consciousness and that consciousness is conditioned. Since it is conditioned, it must be in conflict. Aren't you all in conflict of some kind or other, conflict being dissension between two people, conflict with oneself, what is and what should be? That is conflict. All human beings apparently are violent. The content of our consciousness is part of that violence. Conflict arises when there is duality. That is, I am violent, I should not be violent. Or I have the ideal of non-violence or of practising non-violence, but the fact is you are violent. That is a fact. The other is not a fact.
We must go into this very carefully because we are trying to understand why human beings live perpetually in conflict, why there is a contradiction - I am, I should be; I am violent, I must become non-violent. The non-violence is an idea, is a concept, is not an actuality, because I am violent. This is a fact, an actuality. The other is non-fact, but we think the pursuit of non-violence will help us to become non-violent, that we will be free from violence. Let us understand the content of that word. What does violence mean? There is physical violence. You shoot with a gun, or you hit, or you throw a bomb, you slap, you injure. That is physical violence. What is psychological violence? - the inward anger, hatred, wanting to dominate people, not only physical domination, but the domination of ideas. I know, you don't know; I will tell you, and you will obey. That is domination. The gurus are violent because they are dominating people with their ideas, with their systems of meditation and all that. Please understand this. We are not attacking gurus. I am just pointing out that psychological dependence, imitation, conformity, domination, all that is inward violence. That is a fact. Can we deal with the fact and not with the idea of the opposite? There is no opposite. Right? There is an opposite as darkness and light, woman and man, tall and short, dark and white, and so on. Inwardly, is there a duality at all? Actually we are asking, `Is there a duality or only `what is''?' There is only `what is', that is, I am violent. Now, is it possible to be free of violence, not to become non-violent? Is this clear? This country has propagated this idea of non-violence. Being violent, they are propagating something which they are not. That means I am gradually, day by day, practising to become that, not to understand violence, but become something which I have called non-violence. Do you see the difference? Hence there is conflict. When I am observing, learning, enquiring into the fact, there is no conflict in my mind. But if my mind is all the time saying, `l must achieve non-violence', then there is conflict. But if I say I am violent, what is the root of violence, what is the nature of violence? I don't condemn it, I observe it.
What is observation? Now, when you observe the full moon, do you observe it, do you see the beauty of that light, see the extraordinary quality of that light, or do you say it is a full moon and do something else? What do you mean by observing? Do you ever observe the snow clad mountain with all that grandeur, the beauty, the deep valleys full of dark shadows, the extraordinary majesty of that mountain? When you observe for a single moment, all your problems have gone, because the majesty of that mountain has driven away all your problems for a second. Have you noticed it? But your problems come back immediately. So we are going to talk over together what it means to observe.
Now, suppose I am violent. How do I observe that violence? I want to understand the nature of that violence. I want to explore, discover the extraordinary factors that contribute to violence. How do I observe? First, is violence different from me? Do you understand my question? I am asking, is that violence, which I see when I say I am violent, is that violence different from me, or I am that violence? When you are angry, you are angry. It is not that you are different from anger. You are different from anger only when you want to control it, only when you say, `I must suppress it,' but are you actually different, separate from violence? Is that so? Has the word `violence' - separated through tradition, through constantly talking about violence and so on - created a separation from observation?
The observer says, I am different from that, I am different from violence. We have to enquire who is the observer. The observer is the past, who has known what violence is. It is the past, it is knowledge, it is experience, it is all the stored-up memories. Those memories, those various forms of knowledge, and the movement of all that, is the past. Thought has divided itself as the past, the present, and the future. It has divided itself as the observer and the observed. Thought has said, `I am not violent, violence is not part of me.' But when you look at it closely, you are violent, you are angry, you are greedy, envious, competitive, depressed, you are all that. Right? The observer is not different from that which he is observing. Please understand this. This is very important because, if you really understand this with all your heart and your mind, with all your brain, conflict comes to an end; there is no duality at all. Forget all your books, the Vedanta and all the rest of it. The fact is, there is no opposite except physically. Psychologically, inwardly, there is only the fact. The fact is, one is violent and jealous, and so on.
Now, can you observe the fact without its opposite, which thought has invented? Do you see this, to observe `what is'? In that observation, the observer is the observed, the thinker is the thought the experiencer is the experienced. But we have separated it. We are saying, `I must experience enlightenment,' or whatever it is you want to experience. So the thinker is the thought. There is no thinker without thought. The observer is the observed, the analyser is that which he is analysing. I can put it in ten different ways. But that is a fact: the observer is the observed. Therefore, you eliminate altogether the sense of duality inwardly. Then there is no question of suppressing it, escaping from it, analysing it. It is there. Then what takes place? What takes place when there is actually the realization of this truth that there is only the fact, not the invented opposite, only that which is? In that there is no division as the observer or the observed. Then what takes place? Do you understand my question?
Man has lived in conflict from time immemorial. If you see the rock engravings or those caves in France and in certain parts of the world, you will see that there has always been this battle between the good and the bad, the good against the evil. This has been the history of man - conflict. We are asking if this conflict can end. If it ends, then he is a human being who is vital, creative, and he has something extraordinary. When there is this realization that you are violent, not that you are separate and violence is separate, but you are that, what takes place? You are brown, you have certain characteristics, you have troubles, you are a professor or a scientist - all that is not separate from you. So what takes place when this fact, this truth, is realized, not intellectually, not verbally, but deep down as fact, as truth? Have you not eliminated altogether the opposite? There is only this, and so live with that like a precious jewel that you have discovered; you are watching it, seeing the beauty of that jewel, the light, the many aspects of it as you are watching, which is part of yourself. Therefore, watching, observing, is extraordinarily important so that there is no division whatsoever between the watcher and that which is watched. Then you realize that nothing can be done about it. You are brown, you cannot change it. The fact is, when there is such observation, it is not the word, it is not the memory, it is something totally new. You are facing this new reaction, which you call violence, anew. That means, have you observed anything anew? Have you seen the moon, the new moon that is coming up, as though for the first time in your life? Have you looked at your wife or husband as though for the first time? Or do you just say she is my wife, he is my husband - just a mechanical observation? To observe requires great enquiry, energy, vitality, to see actually `what is'.
We are now concerned with the elimination altogether of all kinds of conflict. Why do we have opinions? You have opinions, judgments, haven't you? Please enquire into this. Why do you carry opinions? It is a burden. I am a Brahmin you are not. I am a Sikh, you are not. I am a Muslim, you are not. Why do you have these opinions? It indicates a mind, a brain, that is so crowded with opinions it is becoming small, petty, narrow. It is not free to enquire, to look.
Why is the human mind, the human brain, always occupied, never free, never quiet? Enquire into all this, because we have a tremendous crisis in the world and also a crisis in our consciousness,
We should also talk over together, relationship. Why is it that in our relationship with each other, however intimate, sexual, however close, there is conflict? Why cannot two people live peacefully? Have you ever asked that question? Because this is very important. If I don't know how to live peacefully with my wife, with my husband, with my girl friend, I cannot live peacefully in the world. I may talk about peace, I may write a great deal about peace, go all over the world talking about peace, but I am quarrelling with my wife, or with my husband. So there is conflict in our relationship. Why? Do you want me to tell you or are you enquiring with the speaker? If you are really enquiring, it is a sharing, a moving together, not agreeing together, but thinking step by step, going together, like walking hand in hand on the lane where there is so much beauty, love and affection. Why is there this dissension, this division between man and man, woman and man, in our relationship? Have you noticed it? We are like two parallel lines, never meeting. We never say what we mean and stick to what we mean. We are going to find out together why in human relationship we have such desperate, ugly conflicts. I have my ambition, my desires, my problems. In my office, I am competitive, aggressive. I am pursuing my own direction and the wife is also pursuing her own ambition, and I dominate, which she resists. So we are asking why there is this conflict, because we two have to live together. We have sex, we have children, but we two are separate. Isn't it a fact? I dominate her or she dominates me, she bullies me, or I bully her. I scold her or she scolds me. I don't beat her but I am angry with her. I would like to beat her, but I am a little more controlled. You laugh; but these are all facts. But I am an individual, she is an individual. Each must have his own way - in habits, in desires. Then, how can two people live together? Which means, you have no love at all for your wife or your husband.
Do you know what it means to love another? Have you ever loved anybody? Is love dependence? Is love desire? Is love pleasure? I don't love my wife; she doesn't love me. We are two separate individuals. We may meet sexually, otherwise we carry on in our own particular way. Do you understand, sirs? Does love exist in this country? Don't ask, `Does it exist in Europe?' When the speaker is in Europe, he talks about it there. But we are talking about it here as we are in this country, in this part of the world. Is there love in this country? Do you love anybody? Can love exist with fear, when each one is becoming something? Can love exist when I am becoming a saint and she is not, or she is becoming a saint and I am not, when each one is becoming? Please understand all this. It is your life. When each one is becoming something, how can there be love? Is it possible to love another without wanting a single thing from another, either emotionally, physically, in any way, not ask my wife for anything? Psychologically, she may care for my need, for I may bring money. I am not talking about that. But inwardly, love cannot exist where there is attachment. If you are attached to your guru, there is no love in your heart. This is very, very serious. Without love, there is no right action. We talk about action. We do so many kinds of social work. But when there is love in your heart, in your eyes, in your blood, in your face, you are a different human being. Whatever you do then has beauty, has grace, is a right action. All this may be excellent words you hear. But will you have this quality? It cannot be cultivated, it cannot be practised, it cannot be bought from your guru, from anywhere. But without that, you are dead human beings. So what will you do? Please do ask this question, find out for yourself why this flame does not exist, why you have become such paupers. Unless you put your house in order, your house, which is yourselves, there will be no order in the world. You may meditate for the rest of your life; but without that, your meditation has no meaning. So, please, most respectfully we are asking, what is your response?
Audience: Well, sir, you have been talking about radical change for the last 50 years, and obviously there is not any radical change in the world. My question to you, then, is why do you talk?
Krishnamurti: The gentleman asks, you have talked about fundamental change of human consciousness and so on for the last 50 years and obviously there is no change at all. Then the question is, why do you talk? The speaker is not talking for his amusement, for his fulfilment, for his encouragement. If he didn't talk, he would not feel depressed, he would not feel lacking something. Therefore, why do I talk? Have you ever asked why the lotus blooms? Have you, sir? Have you ever asked why a flower blooms, why it has so much beauty, why it has such marvellous colour, the depth and the smell and the glory of a simple flower? Maybe the speaker has been talking about compassion.
J. Krishnamurti Mind Without Measure Talks in New Delhi 3rd Public Talk 6th November, 1982 `Factors of Disorder'
If one may point out, we are probing together, questioning, doubting, asking, and this is not a lecture. We are together enquiring, taking a walk together into the whole field of existence, not dealing with a particular problem, but the problem of man, the problem of human beings. One of the factors in our existence is that we live in disorder. Apparently, after thirty, forty thousand years or more, we have not been able to live in total order in the universe; not relative order, but to have order within, under all circumstances, wherever we live - socially, politically, and so on. What is important is that we, you and I the speaker, should unfold the causes of disorder, not merely listen to the explanation or the description which the speaker might offer, but together think, observe, go into ourselves, not in any way selfishly or self-centredly, but look at our lives, look at what we have made of the world; why man, the human being, lives in perpetual disorder outwardly and inwardly. To enquire if it is possible to live in order inwardly first, then outwardly, not the other way round. But first, inwardly, deep within ourselves one can live in complete order. Also, we should be able to discuss, talk over together this evening, the problem of suffering and this enormous mystery of death.
Beauty is complete order. But most of us have not that sense of beauty in our lives. We may be great artists, great painters, expert in various things, but in our own daily life, with all the anxieties and miseries, we live, unfortunately, a very disordered life. It is a fact. You may be a great scientist, you may be a very great expert in a subject, but you have your own problems, struggles, pain, anxieties and the rest of it. We are asking together, is it possible to live in complete order within, not impose discipline, control, but to enquire into the nature of this disorder, what are the causes, and to dispel, move away, wash away the cause? Then there is a living order in the universe.
Order is not following a particular pattern of life, or following certain systems blindly or openly, but to enquire into ourselves and discover for ourselves; not to be told, not to be guided, but to unfold in ourselves the real causes of this disorder. So, what are the causes of this chaos, not only in the world outside of us, but also of our own inward psychological confusion which has produced disorder outwardly?
Would you consider desire as one of the factors of disorder? What is desire? For most of us desire is a potent factor: desire drives us, desire brings about a sense of happiness or disaster. Desire changes with the objects of desire. Is desire one of the causes? Why is it that all religions, all so-called religious people, have suppressed desire? All over the world the monks, the sannyasis, have denied desire, though they are boiling inside. The fire of desire is burning, but they deny it by suppressing it or identifying that desire with a symbol, with a figure and surrendering that desire to the figure, to that person. But it is still desire. Most of us, when we become aware of our desires, either suppress or indulge it or come into conflict; the battle goes on. We are not advocating either to suppress it or to surrender to it or to control it. That has been done all over the world by every religious person. We are examining it very closely so that out of your own understanding of that desire, how it arises, its nature, out of that understanding, self-awareness of it, one becomes intelligent. Then that intelligence acts, not desire.
First of all, are we aware, each one of us, of the extraordinary power of desire - desire for power, desire for certain things, desire for god, desire for enlightenment, desire to follow some system? Desire has so many aspects. It is as intricate as the weaving of a great master weaver. One has to look at it very, very simply and then the complexity arises. But if you start with complexity, then you are not going further. If you start simply, then you can go very far. We are looking at it - the root and the beginning of desire.
Have you ever noticed how our senses operate? Does one become aware of one's senses, not a particular sense, but the totality of the senses? - the feeling, the tasting, the hearing, the seeing - to have all these senses in operation fully? When all your senses are active, functioning, have you ever looked at a tree that way? Have you ever looked at the sea, the mountain, the hills and the valley with all your senses? If you do, then there is no centre from which you are looking. The whole of your sensory reactions are complete, not controlled, shaped, suppressed. Unless you understand this very clearly, it is a dangerous thing to say this because, for most of us, our senses are partial - we may have very good taste for clothes and a rotten taste for furniture! You know all that. Our senses are limited as we now live. Nobody, no religion, no other philosophers, have said this. All the senses have to flower and, in that flowering, perceive the beauty of the world.
So, what are the causes of desire? Let us go into it very carefully. What is desire; How does it arise? It doesn't arise by itself. It arises through sensation, through contact, through seeing something - seeing a man or a woman, seeing a dress in a window, seeing a dress or a car or the great hills. There is immediate sensation. It is natural, healthy, to have such sensation, such response. Then what takes place? I see a beautiful woman, a beautiful man, a beautiful house, a beautiful dress. I see a beautiful shirt made most delicately. I go inside and touch the material. First seeing, then contact, and from that contact, sensation, right? Then what happens? Enquire into it: You have touched the shirt, you have the sensation of its quality, its colour. Up to now there has been no desire; there has been only sensation. Then what happens? You have touched that shirt or dress. Then thought creates the image of you in that shirt, in that car, in that dress. When thought creates that image, that is the moment desire is born. That is, desire begins when thought creates the image. I see a beautiful violin - I want to have it; the beauty of that sound that violin makes - I like to possess it. I look at it, touch it, get the sense of that old structure, and I would like to have it; that is, the moment thought enters into the field of sensation and creates the image, then desire begins.
Now, the question is, whether there can be a hiatus, a gap; that is, have only sensation, and not let thought come and control sensation. That is the problem. Why does thought create the image and hold on to that sensation? Is it possible to look at the shirt, touch it - sensation - and stop, not allow thought to enter into it? Have you ever tried any of these? When thought enters into the field of sensation - and thought is also a sensation - then thought takes control of sensation, and desire begins. Is it possible to only observe, contact, sensation, and nothing else? Do you understand that? And discipline has no place in this because the moment you begin to discipline, that is another form of desire to achieve something. So one has to discover the beginning of desire and see what happens. Don't buy the shirt immediately, but see what happens. You can look at it; but we are so eager to get something, to possess a shirt, a man, a woman or some status that we have never the time, the quietness, to look at all this. So, desire is one of the factors of our disorder. We have been trained either to suppress or to change the object. But we have never looked at the moment of the flowering of desire. That is one of the causes of disorder in our life. Please bear in mind, we are not trying to control desire - that has been tried by all the so-called saints - nor are we talking of indulging desire, but we are looking at it like a flower, how it grows.
Then, is fear one of the causes of disorder? Obviously, it is - fear of failure, fear of not being able to fulfil, fear of losing, fear of not gaining. We have every kind of fear. You have fear of the guru - have you ever noticed how you crawl in front of a guru? You kind of become inhuman, you are afraid. You want something from him and so you worship him. In that worship there is fear. So, there are multiple forms of fear. We are not talking of one particular form. We are asking what is the root of fear. If we can discover the root of fear, then the whole tree is there. Do you understand that? But if I am concerned with my particular little fear of darkness, or of my husband, wife, or something or the other, my brain is not involved in the discovery of the whole root. This is clear. So, what is the root of fear? How does it arise? This is a very complex problem. Every complex problem must be approached very simply, the simpler the better. Simpler means to say, `I don't know how to deal with fear.' Then you begin to discover. If you have already come to a conclusion as to what the root of fear is, then you never discover what the root is. But you have to approach fear very simply, the trunk and the root of fear, not the branches. We are asking what is the cause or the causation of fear.
Would you say time is a factor of fear? Time - that is, I am living, I might die tomorrow, which is time, right? To go from here to your house, that requires time. There are only two kinds of time: time by the sunrise or sunset, time by the watch, time by the distance you have to cover, time that is physical. There is the other time which is psychological, inward: I am this, but I will be that; I am violent, but I am practising non-violence; I am brutal, but give me time, I will get over it; I hope I will meet my friend tomorrow. Hope implies time. Do you understand this? There is time by the watch, time as psychological becoming, climbing the ladder of becoming, that is, creating an ideal and then trying to reach that ideal: I am this but tomorrow I will be different; I have not reached the position of power, but give me time, I will get it - all that implies psychological time. Is that clear? So, one of the factors of fear is time.
We must ask what is time, not by the watch, but time that we have: `I hope I will', which is measurement. Hope implies measurement. Time is movement, isn't it? When we begin to understand that there can be an end to fear completely, inwardly; then there is a possibility of being totally free from fear. To find that out, one must begin to enquire. Desire is one of the factors of disorder. Fear is one of the factors. Fear is time. Time is a movement from one point to another point, both physically and psychologically - I need time to learn a language. It may take a month, two months, or three months. To go from here to London takes time. To drive a car I need time. We need time there. But when we use that time to become something inwardly, we have moved over from the physical fact of learning a language to the psychological field, and I say to myself: I also need time to evolve, to become less violent. Do you understand this? I need time to learn a language and also I think I need time to get over violence, to bring about peace in the world. That is a movement in measurement. That is a movement which is thought. Thought is a movement and thought has created time. That is, I want to change `what is', and to change that I need time.
So, desire, time, thought, are the factors which bring about fear. I have done something wrong two years ago, and that has caused pain, and I will not do the same thing again. Now, what is thought? The whole world is moving in the realm of thought. The technological world with all its extraordinary complexity is brought about by thought. Man has built the most extraordinary, complicated machines like the computer, the jet, and so on. It is also put together by thought. All the great cathedrals are put together by thought; all the temples and all the things that are in the temples and cathedrals are put together by thought. The rituals are invented by thought. The guru is invented by thought. When you say `I am a Sikh', it is thought conditioning itself as a Sikh and operating. So thought has become the most important factor in our life. In our relationship, thought dominates. Thought has created the problems of war, and thought then says, `I must have peace also', which is a contradiction. Do you understand? Why has thought become so extraordinarily important in the world?
What is thought, what is the origin and the beginning of thought, and why does man depend on thought? All the great intellectuals, the great scientists, great philosophers, all the books that have been written, are all the result of thought, are based on thought. What is thought, by which we live? Is there a thought without knowledge? What is knowledge? There are several kinds of knowledge, but we will take two: knowledge you acquire by going to a school, college, a university, or by becoming an apprentice and gradually accumulating skill. If you want to be a carpenter, you must learn the grains of wood, what kind of wood to use, what instruments to use, and so on. If you want to be a scientist, you must have tremendous knowledge. Knowledge is born of experience. One scientist discovers something; another scientist adds to it or detracts from it. So, there is a gradual accumulation of knowledge. Now, is knowledge complete, or is knowledge always limited? Can the human thought which is born of knowledge, can that knowledge, be totally complete about anything? Knowledge is always limited. The Gita, the Upanishads, the Bible, they are all knowledge. And knowledge, whether it is given by a saint, by a politician, by a philosopher, is limited. So don't worship knowledge. If it is limited, as it is, then knowledge always lives with ignorance. So, thought is born out of knowledge. Do you understand this - the complexity of thought, the delicacy of thought, the extraordinary capacity of thought? In one direction, in the technological direction, it has invented the marvellous machinery, the dynamo, the piston engine, the jet, and so on, and on the other hand, thought has created wars. It has created instruments of war. We want to kill each other. If thought is the only instrument we have and that instrument is becoming blunt and creating problems, we are asking if there is another kind of instrument which is not thought.
We see disorder in our lives, at whatever level we may live. You may have the greatest power on earth, be a politician or a guru, but you live in disorder inwardly. Therefore, whatever you touch, to it you bring disorder. You see this all over the country. There are many factors of disorder, and desire is one factor. We went into it - desire, time and thought. If you exercise thought to create order, you are still creating disorder. Do you understand? Our whole life is based on discipline. We have disciplined ourselves to do this and not to do that. The word `discipline' is, the root of it is, `to learn; not from somebody, but to learn from oneself, one's own reactions, one's own observation, and one's own activities and behaviour. But discipline never brings about intelligence. What brings about intelligence is observation, and being free from fear, and understanding the nature of desire. For example, if you understand desire, see the nature, structure, its vitality, and find out for yourself the sensation and when thought enters it, when you become aware of that, you are beginning to have intelligence, which is not your intelligence or my intelligence but intelligence. So, is it possible to be free of fear which is such a tremendous burden? You have listened. Are you free from it? If you are honest, you are not. Why? Because, you have not really investigated, gone into it step by step and said, `Let me find out' with your passion, with your guts, putting your vitality into it. You have not done that. You have just listened casually, you are afraid to look at it. And so you live with it, as with some horrible disease, you live with fear, and that is causing disorder. If you see that, you are already operating from intelligence. If you understand the nature of thought, the intricacies, the subtleties, the beauty of it, from that understanding the unfolding of a flower happens. It is unfolding - the beauty of the flower.
Do you see the beauty of the flower, of the mountain, of a full moon on a leaf, the lights of silver on a piece of rock? Sir, what is beauty, not in a painting, but beauty in our life? What is the nature of sorrow, the ending of that burden, puffing away of sorrow? If you suffer pain, anxiety, ambition, and so on, you don't know what love is. You want to be ambitious, you want to have power, position, better house, better cars. Have you ever understood that a man who is ambitious has no love in his heart? And we are all very ambitious to achieve nirvana or to become a bank manager. To reach nirvana or moksha is the same thing as becoming manager of a bank because both are ambitions. To live a life of intelligence means no ambition but to be tremendously active. Sir, we have to talk over together the ending of sorrow, and what are the implications of death, and what is religion. Without religion you cannot create a new structure, a new society. What we have as religion is utter nonsense, meaningless. We have to enquire into the depth of that word. Because, only a new culture, a new civilization, can be born out of true religion, not all that paraphernalia that goes on in the name of religion. Religion is something entirely different. To have a religious life means to have compassion, love; it means the ending of sorrow, to find right relationship with each other. What most people want is not to be disturbed. They want to continue with their own particular pattern of life. So, please consider, give your energy, your capacity, to find out whether there is a different way of living on this earth.
You don't love anybody. If you love somebody, then this country would not be in chaos as it is; and there won't be wars if we love people. Your books, your rituals, your japas have no meaning whatsoever because you have lost the most precious thing in life. You probably never had it: to love without jealousy, without possession. Love is not attachment. If all of us under this tent, if we all love, then there will be a different India tomorrow. You are all so verbal, you just use words, but find out why your life is empty, shallow, why you have no love, why there is no compassion, why you are a Hindu, a Sikh, and a Muslim. You have never asked these questions, sirs. Meditation is to ask these questions. Meditation is to find out the reality of these questions and the truth that lies behind these questions.
J. Krishnamurti Mind Without Measure Talks in New Delhi 4th Public Talk 7th November, 1982 `In Ending, There is a New Beginning'
It is necessary to talk about suffering and whether there is an end to suffering, and the meaning of death. That is part of our life. We should go also into the question of religion, what is implied in religion, what is a religious mind, and meditation. We will talk over together as two friends who have known each other for some time, not opposing each other, not defending or accusing, but enquiring, probing gently, because one discovers what is true only when there is no certainty. Those who begin with certainty end up in uncertainty. Those who begin with uncertainty, questioning, asking, doubting, probing, those end up with absolute certainty, not relative certainty.
So, what is suffering; can it end? And if there is suffering, can there be love? Human beings throughout the world have suffered incredibly. The last two world wars and the previous 5,000 years in which there have been wars, practically every year, man, woman has shed innumerable tears. Man has suffered and is going on suffering. The poor in this country suffer. There is disease, pain, and the anguish of human existence. Life is not pleasant; life is a turmoil, agony. One becomes more and more aware of all this. One begins to see very clearly that all human beings bear the same burden, share the same sorrow; not a particular sorrow, not the sorrow of one's son dying or brother dying, or the wife or the husband leaving, but the sorrow which man has accumulated for thousands of years. Your sorrow is the sorrow of mankind, the sorrow of all human beings, whether you live in Russia or China or in this unfortunate country.
We are questioning, asking the causes of sorrow, the pain of sorrow, the grief, the anxiety that comes with sorrow, the utter loneliness of sorrow. Like pleasure, sorrow is narrowed down as mine. When we are concerned with our own particular sorrow, we neglect, we disregard, we are not concerned with the sorrow of mankind, whereas our consciousness is the consciousness of humanity. One must understand this very clearly because, in understanding the nature of our consciousness, what we are, we begin to see that our pain, our loneliness, our depression, our joys, our beliefs, are shared by all humanity. You may believe in one kind of god and he may believe in another kind of god, but belief is common, belief is general, and that is our consciousness. That is what you are. The language you speak, the food you eat, the climate, the clothes, the education, the constant repetition of certain phrases, the loneliness, the ultimate fear of death, is the ground on which all humanity stands. You are the humanity. Your consciousness is not individual. It is the consciousness of all mankind with their myths, superstitions, with their images, fears, and so on. This is important to understand, not intellectually, not verbally, but with your heart, with your mind, because, when we come to the question of what is death, we must first understand the nature of our consciousness, the nature of what we are actually; not what we should be, but what we actually are in daily life. That actuality is shared by each and every human being in the world.
When we are enquiring into the nature of sorrow, we are not discussing your particular, narrow, little pain and agony but the agony of mankind and you actually are mankind. This enquiry is not selfish. This enquiry opens up tremendous possibilities. Kindly listen, find out for yourself the nature of sorrow, why human beings all over the world have gone through tortures, sorrow. What is sorrow and why has not mankind put it off, thrown it off? Please ask this question of yourself. Why must you have some kind of sorrow, some kind of grief, pain, the sorrow of loneliness, though you may be married, have children? You are lonely people. You have separated yourself enormously. When there is a great grief, you realize how lonely you are. We are asking, is one of the causes of sorrow this loneliness? Loneliness is the result of our daily life. Each one of us, from the highest to the lowest, is completely convinced that he is a separate soul, separate entity, and all his activity is self-centred. The daily activity of this self-centredness will inevitably bring about solitude, loneliness, separatism, division. We are asking, is this isolation in our way of thinking, in our way of life, one of the causes of sorrow?
And, is attachment the cause of sorrow? I am attached to my wife, to my son, to my memories, to my beliefs, to my experience. I am attached to that. I believe and I am attached to that belief, and when that belief is questioned, doubted, shaken, there is uncertainty, pain. Is that one of the causes of sorrow? Is it possible to be free of all beliefs, not one particular belief or one particular ideal, but to be totally free of all ideals, all beliefs? Please don't ask, `If one is free of belief and ideals, what do you replace it by?' That is a wrong question. See the truth that any belief, any ideal, divides people. I believe that god exists or does not exist. I believe in certain ideology - communist, socialist, capitalist, whatever it is, for which I am willing to fight, kill people. We believe because it gives us some sense of security. You may believe in god, as most of you do, because it gives you a sense of protection, guidance, security. The mind has invented, the brain has invented, various forms of security - nationalism, religious figures, and the so-called sacred books. They have all given a certain quality of security. Actually, there is no security at all. It is an illusion. To realize that belief, ideals and so on are very, very destructive, that they separate man from man, and to see the truth of it, is to become intelligent. Only in intelligence there is complete security, not in your beliefs, in your myths and ideals. To discover this intelligence - and that intelligence is not yours or the speaker's, it is intelligence - is to see the false as false and end the false. To see `what is' actually, not imagine and run away from it but to see actually what we are, and in that exploration there is the awakening of intelligence.
So we are asking, is pain, the anguish, sorrow, brought about by our isolation of mind, of thought, of action? Is sorrow the result of our daily attachment, how we are attached to people? Please wake up to all this, see the truth of all this. Please explore the nature of attachment. It breeds anxiety, fear, pain, jealousy, hatred. All these are the consequences of attachment. You are attached to your wife or to your husband. See the consequences of it. You depend on each other, that dependence gives a form of security. When that person leaves or dies or runs away from you, you are then in pain, in agony, you have suspicion, hatred and sorrow. Don't you know all this? It is nothing new. This is an everyday fact of life. It may not happen to you, but it is happening to others, millions of others. In their relationship, there is sorrow, fear, agony.
We are asking, is attachment one of the causes of this sorrow? I am attached to my son and he dies, and then I invent various forms of comfort. I never remain with sorrow. To remain, not to escape, not to seek comfort, not to run off to some form of entertainment, religious or otherwise, but to look at it, live with it, understand the nature of it - when you do that, sorrow opens the door to passion. You are not passionate people because you have never understood the nature of sorrow and the ending of sorrow. You have become very dull. You accept anything, accept sorrow, accept fear, you accept being dominated by politicians, by your guru, by all the books and traditions. That means you never want to be free and you are frightened to be free, frightened of the unknown. You invent various forms of consoling, illusory images and hopes.
Now, after saying all this about sorrow, looking at it, when my son dies, I realize how I am attached to him, that I have lost him for ever and remain with that sorrow. Do you understand this? It is like a flower. It blooms, it opens up, and it withers away. It dies at the end of the day. It may die at the end of the week, but it withers away. You must give it an opportunity to flower - the flowering of sorrow and the ending of sorrow. Then you have passion, vitality, energy, drive. Where there is sorrow, there can be no love. A mind, a brain, that is in agony, that is lonely, self-centred, how can it love? Love is not emotional, love is not sentiment, romantic, fanciful, comforting thing. It is tremendously vital, as strong as death. When there is sorrow, love is not. Most human beings in the world suffer and never resolve the problems of suffering. So they do not know what it is to love. We have now reduced love to pleasure, sexual attachment and so on, to various forms of pleasure.
We ought to ask, is love pleasure, is love desire, is love thought? Can love ever be cultivated? Without love, the sense of compassion, the flame of it, the intelligence of it, life has very little meaning. You may invent a purpose for life, perfection, you know all the rest of that business, but without this fundamental beauty of love, life has no meaning. Actually, your life, when you look at it, going to the office every day for the next 50 years, what does it all mean? - bringing little money, little power, breeding children, wrong kind of education and so perpetuating this incredible cruelty in the world. You may read all the books in the world, visit all the museums in the world, listen to talks like this from a different kind of speaker, but if there is not this quality, that extraordinary sense of beauty with its great sensitivity, life has very little meaning. Without this you become more and more mischievous, more and more chaotic in the world. Do you love anybody? Does that love contain jealousy, possessiveness, domination, attachment? Then that is not love. It is just a form of pleasure, entertainment. Where there is sorrow, there cannot be love, and therefore no intelligence. Love has its own intelligence. Compassion has its quality of this pure, unadulterated intelligence.
When there is that, that intelligence operates in this world. That intelligence is not the result of thought; thought is a small affair. When you hear all this, when you see the truth of all this - If you do - does the perfume, the sense, of being completely loving happen, or do you go back to the old routine?
Also we ought to talk over together the question of death. Like love, hate, pain, sorrow and fear, death is part of our life. You may postpone it, you may say I have ten years more to live, but at the end of it there is death waiting. All humanity fears death or rationalizes it away saying that death is inevitable. To understand the depth and the full significance of that extraordinary incident which we call death, you must understand the nature of our own consciousness, the nature of what you are. If you do not understand what you are actually, not descriptively, then death becomes a dreadful thing.
If we are to go into the question of death, we must understand what you are - a name, a form, man or woman, with certain qualities, certain tendencies, idiosyncrasies, desire, pain, anxiety, uncertainty, confusion. Out of this confusion, you invent something permanent - the Absolute, the Brahman or God. But what you actually are, is the movement of thought. That thought may invent the idea that you have got the spark of divinity in you, but it is still the movement of thought. So what are you apart from your physical reactions, differently educated, rich and poor? Actually, when you look at yourself, what are you? Aren't you all this? If there is something permanent in you, then why seek permanency in something else? Do you understand my question? As we said, begin with uncertainty, begin with not knowing. This is what you are. You know your face when you look in a mirror. Also, inwardly, you are all the struggle, the pain, the conflict, the misery, the confusion. That is what you are actually. That is the state of all human beings. So your consciousness is not yours but is the common ground on which all human beings stand and share. If that is clearly seen, then what is death?
Death is the ending of everything: My pleasures, my memories, my experiences, my attachments, ideals, beliefs - all that end. But we do not like the ending; to us ending is pain. So we begin to invent, search for comfort in reincarnation. Don't you? You never ask what is it that reincarnates in the next life. What is it that reincarnates - your memories, your experiences, your hopes, a better life, better house? This is what you are now. You are going to incarnate in the next life. If you really, actually, deeply believe, feel that next life you are going to be born, then what you are doing now is all important. What you are doing now, what you think, what you feel, how you react matters enormously because that is going to shape your next life. But you don't believe. The actuality is your life now and you are not willing to face it. Death is something to be avoided. You always ask what happens after death. But you have never asked what happens before death, what happens now in your life. What is your life? - working, office, money, pain, striving, climbing the ladder of success. That is your life. And death puts an end to all that. So, is it possible, while living, to end - end your attachment end your belief? To end, the beauty of ending something voluntarily without motive, without pleasure - can you do it?
In ending, there is a new beginning. If you end, there is something, the doors are opened, but you want to be sure before you end that the door will open. So you never end, never end your motive. The understanding of death is to live a life, inwardly ending.
Also now we ought to talk over together religion and meditation. What is religion? What is religion for most of you? - beliefs, rituals. If you are a Christian, you believe in a saviour, in a particular saviour, with all the rituals, with all the marvellous, beautiful architecture inside the churches, the great cathedrals. Have you seen a cathedral performing a mass? It is a great sight, with great beauty, with utter precision, to impress the poor people who believe and do all the rituals, puja, daily, and above all believe in god. That is what you call religion, which has absolutely nothing whatever to do with your daily life. All religions, organized or unorganised, have said, `Don't kill, love someone.' But you go on killing, you go on worshipping false gods which is your nationalism, your tribalism. So you are killing each other. That is what you all call religion. To find out the nature of a religious mind, you must put away all those childish things. Will you? Of course not. You will go on doing your puja, your ceremonies, become slaves to the priests. Religion has become a form of entertainment. Can you put away all that and not belong to any religion, neither be a Christian, Hindu, Buddhist or Muslim? Leave all that; that is a propaganda of centuries. Like a computer, you are being programmed. When you say, `I am a Hindu', you have been programmed for the last 5,000 years. When you are enquiring into the nature of religion, you must be free from all this. Will you? When there is freedom from all that is false, illusory, then you begin to enquire into what is meditation; not before. A mind in conflict, a brain in struggle, cannot possibly meditate. You may sit down for 20 minutes every day, but if the brain is in conflict, pain, anxiety, loneliness, sorrow, what is the value of your meditation? We are going to enquire into what is the meditation, not how to meditate. You have asked, `Tell me how to meditate', which is to give you a system, a method, a practice. Do you know what practising every day does to your brain? Your brain becomes dull, mechanical, it is tortured, making effort to achieve some silence, some state of experience. That is not meditation. That is just another form of achievement like a politician becoming a minister. In your meditation, you want to achieve illumination, silence. It is the same pattern repeated; only, you call it religious and the other calls it political achievement. There is not much difference.
What is meditation, what does that word mean? If you look up the dictionary, you'll find it means to ponder over, to be able to think clearly, not with confusion, not with personal objectives, but clearly, to think. It needs clarity. Meditation also means measurement, to measure. We are always measuring, which is comparing - I am this, I will be that, I will be better - which is a form of measurement. The word `better' is measurement. To compare yourself with another is a measurement. When you tell your son or somebody that you must be like your elder brother, that is measurement. We live by measurement; we always compare. That is a fact. Our brain is conditioned to measure - I am this today, I hope I will be different in a year's time, not physically but psychologically. That is a measurement.
Now, to live without measurement, to be totally, completely, free of all measurement, is part of meditation. Not that `I am practising this, I will achieve something in a year's time.' That is measurement which is the very nature of one's egotistic activity. In schools we compare, in universities we compare. We compare ourselves with somebody who is more intelligent, more beautiful physically - there is this constant measurement going on. Either you know it consciously or you are not aware of this movement of measurement. Meditation is the ending of measurement, ending of comparison, completely. See what is implied in it - that there is no psychological mark. Tomorrow is the measurement of what is in time. Do you understand this? So measurement, comparison, and the action of will must end completely. There is no action of will in meditation. Every form, every system, of meditation is an activity of the will. What is will? I will meditate, I will sit down quietly, control myself, narrow down my thoughts and practise - all that is the action of desire, which is the essence of will. In meditation there is no activity of the will. Do you understand the beauty of all this? When there is no measurement, no comparison, no achieving or becoming, there is the silence of the negation of the self. There is no self in meditation. So a mind, a brain, that is in the act of meditation is whole. The whole of life is meditation, not one period of meditation when you meditate. Meditation is the whole movement of living. But you have separated meditation from your life: It is a form of relaxation like taking a drug. If you want to repeat, repeat Coca Cola or any other cola which has the same effect to dull the mind, whereas in meditation, when there is no measurement, when there is no action of the will and mind, the brain is entirely free from all systems. Then there is a great sense of freedom. In that freedom there is absolute order, and that you must have in life. Then, in that state of mind, there is silence, not wanting, desiring to have a quiet mind, but there is freedom from measurement. In that freedom there is absolute order, there is silence.
Then, is there something sacred, not invented by thought? There is nothing sacred in the temple, in the mosque, in the churches. They are all the inventions of thought. When you discard all that, is there something sacred that is nameless, timeless, something that is the outcome of great beauty and total order which begins in our daily life? That is why meditation is the movement of living. If you do not understand the basis of all this that is our life, our everyday reactions or behaviour, your meditation has no meaning whatsoever. You can sit on the banks of the Ganga or some place and do all kinds of tricks with yourself. That is not meditation. Meditation is something that is of daily life. It is your movement of life, and then there is in that movement freedom, order, and out of that flowers great silence. Only when you have come to that point, one finds there is something absolutely sacred.
J. Krishnamurti Mind Without Measure Talks in Calcutta 1st Public Talk 20th November, 1982 `The Human Condition'
From the very beginning, we ought to establish our relationship. This is not a lecture as it is commonly understood. A lecture is a discourse on a particular subject by way of instruction. This is a conversation between you and the speaker. The speaker is not telling you what to do, what to think, how you should behave, and so on. This is a conversation between two people concerned with what is happening in the world, what is happening to man, not a particular man but man in the world; what is man doing to man, what he has done to other men, what is exactly happening in the world - not in any particular part of the world, but what is happening to man on the earth.
To have a conversation with another, a friendly, serious communication with each other, we must learn how to listen. We hardly ever listen to another. We carry on with our own thoughts, with our own problems, with our own particular ideas and conclusions, and so it is very difficult to listen to another. We are suggesting that you listen. There is an art of listening. We are going to talk over together a great many things - the state of war, divided nations, divided groups, human relationship. We are going to talk over together the problems of fear, pleasure and the complexity of human thought. We are going to talk over together whether sorrow can ever end and the implications and the complexities of death. We are also going to talk over together what is religion, what is meditation, and if there is anything sacred, eternal. We are going to talk over together all these things. And one must have the art of listening to all this; not what you think with all your traditions, with all your knowledge, but to listen to another who is telling you something. Then communication becomes simple, easy. But if you are not thinking together, which is quite an arduous task, then you and the speaker will be thinking in two different directions. So there is an art of listening; not translating what the speaker is saying, but listening to the word, the content of the word, the significance and the depth of the word. We are using ordinary, daily language. There is no jargon, there is no specialized subject about which we are talking. We are talking of human beings and problems. The word has depth, meaning, and we are speaking in English, using the daily language without any mysterious words being used. It is important that you and the speaker establish a right relationship. He is not a guru. He is not going to inform you what to think, how to think, but together we are going to observe the activities of human beings right throughout the world, why they have become what they are.
We are going to look together why man has become what he is - cruel, destructive, violent, idealistic and, in the world of technology, doing astonishing things of which most of us are unaware; why after thousands of years of wars, shedding tears, a human being, through a long period of time, is actually behaving in this manner. Man has divided the world into nationalities; man has divided the world into the Catholic, the Protestant, the Hindu, the Muslim and so on - religiously. Where there is division as the Arab and the Jew, the Hindu and the Muslim, and so on, where there is division, there must be conflict. This is a natural law, which is what is actually taking place in the world. Why is there this division? Who has brought this about? Why has man become what he is in spite of great experience, in spite of great knowledge, in spite of vast technological advancement; why has he remained more or less what he has been for 40,000 years; why? Is it because our mind, our brain, is programmed, like a computer? The computer is programmed by the professionals and it can repeat perhaps much quicker, more rapidly, than man, giving infinite information. Is it that every human being in this world has been programmed to be a Bengali, to be a Muslim, to be a Hindu, and so on? Is your brain programmed, thinking in a conventional, narrow, limited way? Our brain within the skull is limited. But it has the capacity of extraordinary invention, extraordinary technological advancement. Perhaps most of us do not know what is actually going on in the biological world, in the technological world, in the world of warfare, because most of us are concerned with our daily living, with our own particular problems, with our own fulfilments. So, we generally forget the vast advancement humanity is making in one direction, in the technological world, and totally, completely, neglecting the psychological world, the world of human behaviour, the world of consciousness. What are the causes of all this? Why are human beings being programmed as Christians for 2,000 years, believing in certain doctrines, certain beliefs, seeking only one saviour, and the Muslim also being programmed for the last 1,000 or more years to believe in certain principles and call himself a Muslim, and the Hindu being programmed perhaps for the last three to five thousand years. So our brains are conditioned. Does one ever realize how our brain is acting, thinking, looking? Where there is limitation, there must be conflict.
Our brains are conditioned to be this or that, to behave in a certain manner, to enjoy, to suffer, to have a great burden of fear, uncertainty, confusion and the ultimate fear of death. We are conditioned to that and there is a whole group of people, professors, scholars, writers, including the communists with their guru Marx who say that the human brain will always be conditioned; it can never be free; you can modify that conditioning by environmental influence, by law. It can always be modified, changed here and there, but actually the human brain can never be free. Please understand the implication of that. Therefore, the totalitarian governments are controlling human thought and not allowing them to think freely, and if they do, they are sent to the psychiatric ward, to concentration camps. It is most important to find out for yourself whether the human brain which has been conditioned through experience, through knowledge, whether that brain can ever be free, have no fear, no conditioning. Where there is conditioning, there must be conflict, because all conditioning is limited. Is this clear?
In talking over together, you are aware of your own thinking, your own reactions, your own responses, how they are limited, how they are conditioned, how you depend on past knowledge. You see how your life becomes very narrow, rather sloppy, confused, and there is the fear of insecurity. If one is aware of all one's own inward activities, one's thoughts, one's feelings, one's reactions, then you will find out for yourself how conditioned you are, how limited you are. When you recognise that fact, then you realize the consequences of that conditioning, that limitation. Wherever there is limitation as Hindu or Muslim, there must be conflict. Wherever there is a division between husband and wife, there must be conflict. And human beings throughout the world, after all this evolution, are still in conflict with each other.
Please consider all this because we are concerned with your life as a human being. And that life, our daily living, has become extraordinarily complex, extraordinarily dangerous, difficult, uncertain. The future of man is really at stake. This is not a threat, this is not a pessimistic point of view. The crisis is not only physical, but it is in our consciousness, in our being. So, talking over together, become aware of all this. In becoming aware, you begin to discover. You begin to find out for yourself how your life has become such pain, such anxiety, such uncertainty. If you are so aware, you can then proceed more deeply, but if you merely listen to the words, words have very little meaning. Words have certain significance, but if one lives in words, as most people do, in symbols, in myths, in romantic nonsense, then we make life more and more difficult, more and more dangerous, for each other. So, please listen to find out, to question, to doubt, so that your own brain becomes aware of itself. We are asking why human beings, who have developed the most marvellous technology the world has ever known, have remained more or less the same psychologically, inwardly, for the last 40,000 years. Inwardly, we have systems, we have ideals, we have all the so-called sacred books, but we have not radically brought about a change, a psychological revolution, and we are going to enquire into that - whether it is possible to bring about total mutation in the brain cells themselves.
We are talking about the radical change of human behaviour so that man is not self-centred as he is, which is causing such great destruction in the world. If one is aware, then we can begin to ask whether that conditioning can be totally changed so that man is completely free. Now, he thinks he is free to do what he likes. Each individual thinks he can do what he likes, all over the world, and his freedom is based on choice because he can choose where to live, what kind of work he can do, choose between this idea and that idea, this ideal or that ideal, change from one god to another god from one guru to another, from one philosopher to another. This capacity to choose brings in the concept of freedom, but in the totalitarian state there is no freedom; you can't do what you want to do. It is totally controlled. Choice is not freedom. Choice is merely moving in the same field from one corner to another. Is this clear? Our brain being limited, we are asking, is it possible for the brain to free itself so that there is no fear? Then there is right relationship with all the neighbours in the world.
Now we are going to enquire into the nature of our consciousness. Your consciousness is what you are - your belief, your ideals, your gods, your violence, fear, romantic concepts, your pleasure, your sorrow, and the fear of death and the everlasting question of man, which has been from time immemorial, whether there is something sacred beyond all this. That is your consciousness. That is what you are, You are not different from your consciousness. We are asking whether that content of consciousness can be transformed, can be totally changed.
First, your consciousness is not yours. Your consciousness is the consciousness of all humanity, because what you think, your beliefs, your sensations, your reactions, your pain, your sorrow, your insecurity, your gods, and so on, are shared by all humanity. Go to America, go to England, Europe or Russia, China, you will find human beings suffer everywhere. They are frightened of death, they have beliefs, they have ideals. They speak a particular language, but their thinking, their reactions, their responses, generally are shared by all human beings. This is a fact that you suffer, your neighbour suffers; that neighbour may be thousands of miles away, but he suffers. He is as insecure as you are. He may have a lot of money but inwardly there is insecurity. A rich man in America, or the man in power, all go through this pain, anxiety, loneliness, despair. So, your consciousness is not yours any more than your thinking. It is not an individual thinking. Thinking is common, is general, from the poorest man, the most uneducated, unsophisticated man in a little, tiny village to the most sophisticated brain - the great scientists; they all think. The thinking may be more complex, but thinking is general, shared by all human beings. Therefore, it is not your individual thinking. This is rather difficult to see and to recognise the truth of it, because we are so conditioned as individuals. All your religious books, whether Christian or Muslim or another, all sustain and nourish this idea, this concept of an individual. You have to question that. You have to find out the truth of the matter.
We are investigating together and we see that human consciousness is similar, is shared by all human beings. Therefore, there is no individual. He may be more educated than you, he may be taller, he may be shorter; outside he may be different, but inwardly he shares the ground of all humanity. This is a fact. But if you are frightened, if you are caught in the conditioning of being an individual, you will never understand the immensity and the extraordinary fact that you are the entire humanity. From that there is love, compassion, intelligence, but if you are merely conditioned to the idea that you are an individual, then you have endless complications because it is based on illusion, not on fact. The illusion may be of thousands of years, but it is still illusion. You are the result of your environment, you are the result of the language you speak, you are the result of the food you eat, the clothes, the climate, the tradition handed down from generation to generation - you are all that. You are the product of the society which you have created. Society is not different from you. Man has created the society, the society of greed, envy, hatred, brutality, violence, wars; he has created all that and he has also created the extraordinary world of technology. So, you are the world and the world is you. Your consciousness is not yours, it is the ground on which all human beings stand, all human beings think. So, you are actually not an individual. That is one of the realities, truth that one must understand.
Do not accept what the speaker is saying, but question your own isolation, because individual means isolation. To separate oneself from another is isolation, like nations isolate themselves as Indians and all the rest of it. And they think that in isolation there is security. There is no security in isolation. But the governments of the world, representing the humanity of each country, are maintaining this isolation, and therefore they are perpetuating wars. If you recognise the truth, the fact that you are not an individual, that inwardly there is no division, that we all share the same problems, then the problem is: Can you, as a human being representing all humanity, bring about a fundamental, psychological, revolution? You might ask `If I, as a human being, change, will it affect in any way the rest of mankind? If I do change, if there is a change in a particular person, how will it affect the whole consciousness of mankind?' Please do put that question to yourself; even as a single isolated human being you are asking, `If I change, what effect has it in the world?'
The question is, if you change fundamentally, you affect the whole consciousness of man. Napoleon affected the whole consciousness of Europe. Stalin affected the whole consciousness of Russia. The Christian saviour, he has affected the consciousness of the world, and the Hindus with their peculiar gods have affected the consciousness of the world. When you as a human being, radically transform psychologically, that is, be free of fear, have right relationship with each other, end sorrow and so on, which is a radical transformation, then you affect the whole consciousness of man. It is not an individual affair. It is not a selfish affair. It is not individual salvation; it is the salvation of all human beings of which you are.
First, we must enquire what is relationship. Why is there, in human relationship with each other, such conflict, such misery, such intense sense of loneliness? From past history, from all the knowledge that has been acquired, studied, man has lived in conflict with each other. But relationship is existence: without relationship you cannot exist. In that existence there is conflict. Relationship is absolutely necessary. Life is relationship, action is relationship; what you think brings about relationship or destroys relationship. The hermit, the monk, the sannyasi - he may think he is separate, but he is related - related to the past, related to the environment, related to the man who brings him some grains, some food, some clothes. So life is relationship. We are going to explore together why human beings live in conflict with each other, why there is conflict between you and your husband, between the wife and the man. Because, where there is conflict in relationship, there is no love, there is no compassion, and there is no intelligence. Are you actually related? You may be related to a man, woman, sexually, but apart from that, are you related to anybody? Relation means non-isolation. That is, the man goes to the office every day of his life, to a factory, to some form of occupation, leaving the house at 8 o'clock, spends the whole day working, for 50, 60 years, and then dies. And there the man is ambitious, greedy, envious, struggling, competing; he comes home and the woman, the wife, is also competitive, jealous, anxious, going on in her own way. They may meet sexually, talk together, care somewhat, but they remain separate, like two railway lines never meeting. This is what we call relationship, which is an actuality. This is a fact of everyone's life, the perpetual division between two people, each holding on to his opinions, to his conclusions. The fact is, however intimate that relationship may be, there is always conflict, one dominating the other, one possessing the other, one jealous of the other. This is what we call relationship. Now, can that relationship which we know, be totally changed? Ask yourself this.
Why is there conflict between two human beings, whether they are highly educated or not at all educated? They may be great scientists, but they are ordinary human beings, like you and another - fighting, quarrelling, ambitious. Why does this state exist? Is it not because each person is concerned about himself? So he is isolating himself. In isolation you cannot have right relationship. You hear this, but you will not do anything about it because we fall into a habit, into a rut, into a groove, into a narrow little life, and we put up with it, however miserable, unhappy, quarrelsome, ugly, it is. So, please enquire, question, doubt, whether it is possible to live with another with complete harmony without any dissension, without any division. If you really, deeply, enquire, you will find that you have created an image about your wife, and she has created an image about you. Each has built an image about the other, a picture about the other. These two pictures, images, words, are in relationship with each other. Where there is an image about another, a picture about another, there must be conflict. I am sure you all have an image about the speaker. I am quite sure of it. Why? You don't know the speaker. You can never know the speaker, but you have created an image about him: that he is religious, non-religious, he is stupid, he is very clever, he is beautiful, he is this, he is that. And with that image you look at the person. The image is not the person. The image is the reputation, and reputations are easily created; the reputation may be good or bad. But the human brain, the thought, creates the image. The image is the conclusion, and we live by images and imagination. The making of pictures has no place in love. We don't love each other; we may hold hands, we may sleep together, we may do this and ten different things, but we have no love for each other. If you had that quality, that perfume of love, there would be no wars. There will be no Hindu and Muslim, Jew and Arab. But you listen to all this and you still remain with your images. You still wrangle with each other, quarrel with each other. Your life has become so extraordinarily meaningless.
I wonder how many of you realize that we are put together by thought. Your gods are put together by thought. All the rituals, all the dogmas, the philosophy, are all put together by thought, and thought is not sacred. Thought is always limited. Thought has created an image about you as the audience, about you as the wife and the husband, about you as the Indian and he as the American, and so on. It is these images which are unreal, which are dividing humanity. You should never call yourself an Indian, Russian or American; we are human beings. Then we should have no wars. We should have global government, global relationship, but you are not interested in all that. You hear all this, and if you don't change radically, you are bringing about destruction to the future generation. So, please give ear, give thought, attention, to what is going on outside you and also to what is going on inwardly, for the inward psyche conquers the outer environment. As you see it in Russia, we give such importance to the outer. We must have right society, right laws, feed the poor, be concerned about the poor, but the inward thought, inward feeling inward isolation, is separating man from man and you are responsible for this. Each one of you is responsible for this. Unless you, change fundamentally, inwardly, the future is very dangerous. Unless you fundamentally bring about a change in your daily life, have right relationship with each other, live correctly, not be ambitious and so on, there is no possibility for the ending of conflict between human beings.
J. Krishnamurti Mind Without Measure Talks in Calcutta 2nd Public Talk 21st November, 1982 `The Movement of Becoming'
As one observes the world outside, there is greater and greater chaos in every country. And in this country it is fairly obvious; it is blatant, it is palpable. Where there is uncertainty, disturbance, lack of political credulity, knowing that politicians all over the world are making things far worse, knowing that religions throughout the world have lost all their meaning, seeing all this, there are those who have called themselves the fundamentalists; they go back to the Bible or to the Koran or to the various so-called religious scriptures, thinking that if they follow those books, there will be less chaos. This is what is happening the world over; going back to the past, holding on to certain beliefs, tradition. Most of us are doing this in some way or other. In a world that is very, very chaotic, disturbing, dangerous and preparing for war, one naturally wants some kind of security, outside of us or inside. There isn't much security in the outward world. You may be very rich, you may be very powerful politically, or you might find security in some dogma, in some belief, but in none of these there is absolute security. Man wants security. We must all have security - security in the sense of food, clothes and shelter. Also we want security inwardly, something that will give us assurance, stability, a sense of strength. But there is no security in any belief, in any dogma, in any ideal. Not finding security in any of these, man turns to the past and hopes thereby to find some hope, some kind of words, to hold on to.
I do not know if you have not noticed that the more you cling to some kind of conclusion, reasonable conclusion, logical conclusion or the conclusions of certain authorities, there is less energy. Where there is conclusion, there must be lack of energy because, when you come to a conclusion - which means, after discussing, arguing, come to a point which you think is right - then you shut the door to further enquiry, and that is what is happening in the world. We all want conclusions, whether there is god, whether there is going to be any peace, and so on. Lacking security inwardly and outwardly, lacking something on which we can totally rely, on which we can depend, which will give us comfort, a sense of well-being, we cling to some traditional conclusions and thereby lose that creative energy of enquiry. Enquiry means to penetrate, to investigate, to explore, to open the door, to find out further. But most of us have not that energy, and so we fall back upon something which we call tradition or some book or other.
It seems to the speaker that we are not releasing creative energy to bring about a new culture, a new way of life, because the old Brahmanical culture of this country has completely disappeared - a culture which we are not saying is good or bad; a culture that has existed perhaps three to five thousand years has completely gone overnight, disappeared altogether. And one questions, asks, why human beings who have lived with a particular culture for so long, why that culture has disappeared. Perhaps it was not a culture at all. It was only a series of words, traditions without any life behind them. So, in exploring together the condition of our mind and our heart, in investigating the nature of our brain which is the centre of all our actions, of all our feelings, of every thought, we see whether it is possible to release that creative energy. And we are going to go into this very carefully.
There is an art of listening and there is an art of learning. Most of our learning is the accumulation of knowledge; not knowing mathematics, or biology, or physics, gradually we accumulate a great deal of information about physics and store it up in the brain, which becomes our knowledge about physics, mathematics or what you will. That is what we do, and that is what we call learning - accumulating a lot of knowledge about various subjects - as an engineer, as an astronomer, as a politician. We accumulate knowledge in order to act skilfully in the world as a carpenter, as a mason, as a doctor, knowledge is accumulated, from which we act either skilfully or not skilfully, efficiently or inefficiently. So we must enquire together into what is knowledge, what place knowledge has in our relationship with each other. Perhaps we have never questioned what is the place of knowledge in life apart from having an occupation, becoming a good scientist, doctor, engineer, and so on. We are asking a very serious question, which is, `What place has knowledge in human relationship?' Knowledge is always in the past. There is no future knowledge. Knowledge implies the process of time as the past. And this knowledge, both in the scientific world and human existence, is based on experience. This experience is gathered for millions of years or for the last 30 years. And that knowledge is used to accumulate further knowledge, further exploration, but knowledge is always in the past. There is no question about that. And knowledge is never complete about anything. That is a fact. So, our knowledge is stored in the brain as memory, and the response of that memory is thought. That is, experience either inherited or accumulated in the present becomes knowledge. Then that knowledge is memory, which is the past, and from that memory the reaction is thought. Is this clear?
So thought is always limited. One has accumulated, say for example, scientific knowledge. That knowledge is being added to all the time, more and more. So scientific knowledge is never complete. Thought, whatever it does, is limited. We are saying categorically and definitely that knowledge is limited. Because there is no complete knowledge about anything, knowledge always goes with a shadow of ignorance. And any thought born of knowledge must inevitably be fragmentary, limited, finite; thought can invent something immeasurable, something beyond, infinite, but it is still the movement of thought. A person can invent god because he feels god is necessary for his comfort, for his security, but that god is the product of thought which is limited. We must be very clear on this point; you must see for yourself the fact, the truth, that thought, under all circumstances, whatever the thought, whether of the scientist or of the great philosopher, is always bound, narrow, limited. Thought has invented nationalities and, having created them, brings about division between people - the Muslim and the Hindu, the Jew and the Arab, the communist, the socialist, the capitalist, and so on. Thought has invented all this. All rituals are the product of thought. And thought has created problems like war, like conflict, and so on. Then thought tries to solve these problems.
We see that thought, politically, religiously, and between human beings, has created innumerable problems. And thought says, `I will solve it.' In that solution, you are producing more problems. So life is becoming more and more complex, full of problems, because we think that thought is the only instrument and that thought is limited. Is this clear? We can then ask, is there a new instrument? What is the nature of thought? Thought is a material process because it is held in the very brain cells themselves. Whatever thought thinks about or invents, is the result of a material process. When thought creates god, it is still a material process. Thought is not sacred. if this is very clear, not verbally but deeply, profoundly, then we can ask, is there a new instrument? - not higher consciousness or lower consciousness; that is another invention of thought.
We are going to find out together if there is a new instrument totally different from thought, which thought has not touched at all, because whatever thought touches must be limited and, being limited, it must inevitably create conflict, bring about fragmentation, as it has done in the world - religious fragmentation, political fragmentation, and so on. Is this clear? Can we go on from there? If you are at all serious, deeply concerned, if you have a great affection for humanity, you must have the energy to enquire; the drive, the passion, to find out. A new instrument is so absolutely necessary in this world which is degenerating day by day, destroying itself. By questioning the nature of thought, doubting, asking, probing, we are going to find out for ourselves that thought, at whatever level, is fragmentary, limited, finite, and this limitation has conditioned the brain. The brain has got extraordinary capacity as can be seen from what is happening in the technological world, but the capacity has been developed in one direction only and that is in the technological world - the doctor, the surgeon, the mathematician, the computer expert, and so on. But the human problems, which is our conflict with each other, our sorrow, pain, grief and endless conflict, the technological world can never solve. No politician, no system, no method, is concerned with all that. As ordinary human beings, we are going to find out for ourselves if there is or if there is not a new instrument which is not touched by thought, which is not the result of time, which is not caught in the process of evolution which is thought.
We are going into this step by step, if you are willing, if you are serious. You must have great alertness, attention, capacity, sensitivity; you cannot be committed to any group, to any belief, to any dogma. You have to have a mind that is really global, not a petty little mind concerned with one's own little problems. In the greater, the lesser disappears. In the greater humanity, the few little human problems dissolve. Without understanding the vast complexity of the human brain and mind and head, you will never solve any problem. So please give your attention, care to find out for yourself, not repeat what the speaker says. The speaker has no value. He is just a telephone, but what he says perhaps may have importance. So find out.
Have you ever tried to observe yourself, your wife, the tree across the road and that animal that goes by, without the word? Have you ever tried to look at a tree without naming it, without bringing all the past pictures about a tree, just to observe the tree without the word, to look at it? Have you ever done it? Have you ever looked at your wife or your husband or your politicians? Have you ever looked at them without the symbol? Can you look at the speaker without the word, without all the rubbish and all that reputation, look at him without the image that you have built about him? Perhaps, it will be easier to look at the speaker that way because he does not know you and you don't know him. But to look at your wife, at your husband, is much more difficult. Can you look at the animal without the picture, the image, the word? First, be aware whether you can see, observe, look, without a single word the picture, because then you will awaken your sensitiveness. You are not sensitive to the dust, to the squalor, to the misery, to the poverty; you have just accepted it. The poverty of this country can never be solved, is not ever going to be solved, unless you drop your nationalism completely. It will be solved only when you have understood the global relationship of man to man. Then there will be no frontiers. That you have probably not understood. So, I say that the first essential quality in investigation, in enquiry, in that one has to be extraordinarily sensitive. All religions have said: suppress your senses, suppress your feelings, so that you have gradually lost the sensitivity of the senses. The speaker is saying quite the contrary. The speaker is saying, `Awaken all your senses to their highest degree so that you look at the world with all your senses.' To look at the world with that immense feeling when all the senses are fully awakened, in that there is great, extraordinary sense of energy, beauty. In the investigation of another instrument, we see that the first thing is, man has become dull through repetition, through tradition, through the oppression of the environment; the environment is not merely nature; the environment is the politician, the guru and all that is going on around you. You have gradually lost all sensitivity, all energy to create, but we are talking of creation in the sense of bringing about something totally new, and to have that capacity, the drive, the beauty, one must have great sensitivity. You cannot have great sensitivity if every sense is not fully functioning, fully aware.
Now, why have we destroyed ourselves? Religions have said, the scriptures of this country and the religious leaders have said, the
Christian world has said, `Suppress desire, suppress your feelings, don't look at a woman, torture yourself; then only you find god or nirvana or moksha or whatever you want; only then you will be illumined; which is utter nonsense. How can you destroy the most extraordinary instrument that you have - the body, with all its senses, the beauty? It is an extraordinary instrument. These people say, `Suppress desire, don't yield to desire.' So we must understand the nature of desire. It is very important, in the investigation of a new instrument, to realize just that the old instrument, which is thought, is not solving any human problems. In the investigation of all that, we have now come upon this thing called desire. What is desire? Why have people said, suppress it, deny it? If you cannot identify it with something greater, it is always a problem of struggle. We are not advocating suppression, avoidance, escape, and all that. We are investigating together the nature of desire, how desire arises, why we are caught in it, why it has become so extraordinarily powerful.
What is desire? You see a pleasant object, a beautiful object, a beautiful woman or a man. You desire him or her or that object. That is so. You see a nice car, polished, good lights, powerful, and you touch it, get inside, feel the pleasure of owning it if you can afford it. Then the desire is there. First, the object creates the desire, or desire exists apart from the object; which is, the object, car, creates the desire, or desire exists and the objects may vary. We are not discussing the objects of desire - to be a powerful minister or prime minister, governor, an executive or a talented violinist - but we are enquiring into the very structure and nature of desire. If we understand that, not verbally but factually, then there is never a question of suppressing it, never a question of controlling it. We have controlled, never understanding who is the controller. We have controlled desire, we have controlled our sex, we are brought up to control. And where there is desire, we are trying to understand it, explore it, probe into it, not control it. If this is clear, then we can go together into the understanding of the truth of desire, what place it has in life, or has it no place at all. So we cannot possibly start with any conclusion; that is, suppress desire or let desire run rampant. But we are slowly, hesitantly, carefully, probing into this which becomes an extraordinary factor in life and a torture too.
What is the origin, the source, of desire? Go into it very, very deeply to capture the whole movement of desire, the implication of it, the depth of it, the reality of it. If you had no senses, there will be no sensation. Sensation arises when you see something in the window of a shop, a shirt, a radio, or what you will. You see it - visual perception. Then you go inside that shop, touch the material, and from the touching of it, there is a sensation. This is very simple. You see the car, you touch it, you look at the lights, the polish - not the beauty of Indian cars, but some of the European cars are extraordinarily beautiful. Like an aeroplane, it is extraordinarily beautiful - and you touch it, you touch that shirt you see in the window, blue shirt, and by the very touch there is sensation. Then what happens? Then, if you observe very closely, thought says, `How nice it would be if I had that shirt on me, if I stepped into that car.' So, at that moment when thought creates the image out of the sensation, is the origin of desire.
You see a beautiful tree, which man has not created. Man has created the cathedral, the mosque, the temple, and all the things therein; but he has not created the tree. He has not created nature, but man is destroying nature. Now, you look at a beautiful tree. You wish it were in your garden. And you see it. There is the sensation of the dignity, the shadows, the light on the leaf, the movement of the tree. Then sensation arises. And then thought says, `How nice it would be if I had that tree in my garden. When thought creates the image of that tree in your garden, at that second desire is born. Right? The fact is, it is natural to be sensitive, to have sensations. Otherwise you are paralysed. You must have sensation, you must have sensitivity in your fingers, in your eyes, in your hearing and looking, and you are sensitive to watch, to look - out of that looking, watching, observing, sensation inevitably arises. It must arise; otherwise you are blind, deaf. When there is sensation, then thought creates an image, and at that moment desire is born. Have you found it to be so? Or are you going to repeat just what the speaker has said or go back to your tradition and say we must suppress desire or say what you are talking is nonsense? If you really go into this question of desire, which is so important in life, then you will find out for yourself the origin, the beginning, of desire. Now, the question is to look at a car, at the shirt, at a woman, at a picture; there is arising of sensation. Find out whether thought can be in abeyance, not immediately create a picture, an image of you in that shirt, or in that car, and so on. Can there be a gap between sensation and thought impinging upon that sensation? Find out. It will make your mind, brain, alert, watchful.
Also, we ought to talk over together, in the investigation of a new instrument, whether man can ever be free from fear. We are frightened of something, either of the past or of the future or of the living present, uncertain of the living activity, uncertain of the process of the present. We always have this fear. Man has never solved the problem; he has escaped from it. He has various means of suppressing it, denying it, escaping from it, but he has never solved this problem. When there is fear, dreadful activities take place, all kinds of wrong actions take place. Your whole body, your whole mind, shrinks when there is real danger of fear. This is a problem we must solve, not theoretically, but actually, and be completely free of fear. Is that possible?
What is the cause of fear? Where there is a cause, there is always an end to that cause. This is logic, this is natural. I may have pain, the cause may be cancer. If I discover the cause, the pain will end, or it will be terminal. We investigate the cause through the symptom. We are looking together, not at the symptoms of fear - frightened of the dark, frightened of your parents or grandparents, frightened of your husband or wife, frightened of the politician, and so on. Those are all symptoms, the objects of fear, but we are asking what is the root of it. It is like cutting down a tree, it is like going to the very root of things. We are going to look at it.
First, we are asking, is the cause of fear time? Look at it carefully. Is time a major cause of fear? That is, time being tomorrow, what might happen tomorrow, or what has happened yesterday or many thousand yesterdays, or what might happen now? You understand my question? Is time one of the factors of fear? I may have done something wrong last week, and what I have done has caused pain, and I hope it will not recur again. That is, the word `hope' implies the future. Are you following this? There is time by the watch, time by the sunrise and sunset, time as yesterday, today and tomorrow, time as yesterday's memories, experiences, modifying itself in the present and proceeding into the future. All that is time. Physical time - to cover a distance from here to there, from one point to another point, from this place to go to your home, that requires time. There is the so-called psychological time, the inward time. That is, `I hope I will get a better job at the end of the year, I hope I will be better, nobler or whatever it is, sometime later; I hope I will meet a nice man tomorrow.' So the word `hope' implies time. And another is the idea of better: I am this, but I will be better; I am violent but I will become non-violent. This process of `what is' and transforming `whit is' to something else is a process of time. Is this clear? So, time is a factor of fear. I am living, I have got full energy, but something, an accident, might kill me. I am warned that there is always death. So there is this sense of time, an interval. That interval is translated as the better, as hope, as self-improvement, and so on. I want to fulfil, I may not be able to fulfil. I apply for a job, I may not have the capacity for the job. So there is fear. Time is one of the factors of fear.
We are not saying how to wipe away time. We are enquiring into the nature of fear. Then, is not thought, is not the process of thinking, another factor of fear? Look at it. I think I may die. I think that god exists, but you come along and threaten my belief, and I am frightened. So, thinking of the past incident, hoping that pain will not recur again, thinking about it and wishing that it will not happen again, is the movement of thought. So thought and time are the very root of fear. The physical time - to go from here to your house, that requires time - you cannot stop that. To learn a language, to learn any technique, requires time. We see that time is one of the factors of fear as well as thought. So thought is a movement. Is it not? Time is a movement. Is there actually, factually, psychological time at all? You understand my question? The problem of time is very important as the problem of thought. We live by time. All our knowledge is based on time - the struggle to become less violent, the struggle to become something, which is all measure. I an unhappy, violent, lonely, depressed, anxious. That is `what is'. That is a fact. Then comes the idea, `I must become something else from ``what is.'' That becoming is time, as becoming from a clerk to a manager requires time. That same process of thinking we have brought over into the field of the psyche, into the field of thinking. That is, `I am violent, I will become non-violent', which is, you are allowing time to come, interfere. But when you say, `I am violent, I am going to understand it, look at it, watch it, go into it very quickly, deeply', there is no time. But if you are trying to become something else, there is time.
It is the becoming, which is measure, that demands time. Say, for instance, if you compare yourself with somebody more intelligent, more bright, comparison is measurement. If you don't compare at all with anybody, including your great gods and saints and gurus and all the rest of it, then what happens? You are what you are.
From there you start, but when you are comparing, trying to become something else, you never understand yourself, what you are. So time is a becoming, a becoming which is non-fact. That is, `I am violent, I must become non-violent.' The non-violence is not a fact, has no reality. Though you talk a great deal about it in this country, it does not exist. What exists is violence. If you forget the non-violence, then you can tackle violence, go into it. The understanding of violence can be long or very quick. Either your investigation of violence can take time because you are lazy, or you may say, `I will investigate it tomorrow, it is not important', and so on. But a man who is concerned with violence which is spreading all over the world, destroying humanity, wants to understand the depth of violence, he will understand it instantly. Where there is a becoming, you must have psychological time. That becoming is illusory. The fact is what exists, what you are at the moment - your anger, your reactions, your fears. Look at it. Time is a major factor of fear and also thought. You cannot stop physical time, but when you begin to understand the nature of time inwardly, the becoming and the non-becoming, and understand the whole movement of thought, not suppress it, deny it, say how am I to control thought, then who is the controller? The controller is another part of thought.
If you are really, deeply, concerned with the nature of fear and the total ending of psychological fear, one has to go into the question of time in depth and also the nature and structure of thought. But if you say, `Please tell me a method to get rid of fear,' then you are asking a terribly wrong question because, the very question implies that you have not understood yourself, you have not looked at yourself. Death, conflict, pain, sorrow, pleasure, fear, meditation, all that is our life, and to understand it one must have vitality, strength and you will not have that energy if you are merely repeating words, if you cling to some belief, to some conclusions; that destroys all energy. Energy implies freedom; not what you like to do, but freedom. Only then you have extraordinary energy.
J. Krishnamurti Mind Without Measure Talks in Calcutta 3rd Public Talk 27th November, 1982 `The Ending of Sorrow'
We ought to talk over together this evening why human beings who have lived for over four thousand years, are behaving as they are, what has happened to them, what has happened to each one of us that we don't lead an orderly, sane, balanced life. We have created this society which is immoral, unethical, corrupt, destructive. Each one of us has contributed to it, and if there is to be a radical change in the social structure, we have to begin with ourselves, not with politics, not with Marxism or some kind of retreat from the present. We have to put order in our house first. We are disorderly, violent, confused, lonely. So we are going to talk over this evening what is total order, if there is any kind of love, what is compassion, whether sorrow can ever end, the sorrow of human beings right throughout the world.
We are talking over together - you and the speaker - our problems amicably, without any resistance, not agreeing but exploring, investigating, seeing why we live such disorderly lives and why we accept things as they are. We are not advocating or talking about physical violence, physical revolution. On the contrary, such revolutions have never produced a good society. We are talking about human behaviour, why man is what he is. We cannot blame the environment, we cannot blame the politicians or the scientists. That is a very easy escape, but what we ought to be concerned with is why somewhat intelligent people, somewhat educated people, lead such disorderly lives. So our question is, what is disorder? A confused mind, a confused life, cannot find what is order. Could we together find out for ourselves what causes disorder in our lives, what brings about a society which is utterly disordered? What is disorder? What is the nature and the structure of disorder? There is disorder, isn't there? Where there is contradiction - saying one thing and doing something totally different - there is bound to be disorder. I wonder if one is aware of this. Then, there is conflict, disorder, when we are pursuing ideals - whether political ideals, religious ideals or our own projection of what we think we ought to be. That is, where there is division between actually what is happening in ourselves and neglecting that and pursuing an ideal, that is one of the causes of disorder. Another cause in the psychological, so-called inward life, is to pursue authority, the authority of a book, the authority of a guru, the authority of so-called spiritual people. We accept very easily authority in our inward life. Of course, you have to accept the authority of the scientists, of the technocrat, the doctor, the surgeon. But inwardly, psychologically, why do we accept authority at all? This is an important question to ask. We will come back to it.
We are asking what are the causes of disorder. We said pursuing an ideal is disorder, accepting authority of another in the world of the mind, the inward psychological state, is disorder. One of the other causes of disorder is the everlasting attempt to become something inwardly. So, perhaps these and other causes bring about disorder. We are going to investigate each one of them. Why do we have ideals at all? What is an ideal? Originally the root meaning of that word `idea' was to observe, to look, to seek. But we have translated it as a projection of a particular concept brought about by thought, and that is the ideal and the ideal is far more important and the pursuit of that ideal becomes all-consuming when you totally neglect `what is.' `What is' is important. not the ideal. We are using the word, `what is,' in the sense what is actually happening, both outwardly and inwardly. We are violent, as most human beings are. To have an ideal of non-violence has no reality, has no validity, but what has validity, reality, is the fact that we are violent, and to deal with that violence not in terms of ideals and patterns. Perhaps, in this country, the pursuit of non-violence which is an illusion has deprived us of our energy to look at actually what is going on.
We never look at `what is'. We want to change what is taking place to something else. This has been the process of centuries upon centuries. The political ideal, the religious ideal, the ideal that one has created for oneself, an end, a goal - and the goal, the end, the ideal, becomes extraordinarily important and not what is actually happening. That is, the `what is' is being transformed into `what should be'. Then there is struggle, there is disorder. Whereas, if we give our attention to `what is', and the `what is' is violence, hatred, antagonism, brutality, we can deal with it. We are concerned to discover the causes of disorder. We are saying that one of the major factors of disorder in life is trying to transform or change `what is' into `what should be'. The `what should be' is totally unreal, but `what is' is all-important. If I am greedy, I have to enquire into the nature of greed, whether that greed can really have an end or it must continue and not have the ideal of non-greed. To see the illusory nature of `what is', is the beginning of intelligence.
Then there is division in us, there is duality, the opposite. Is there an opposite at all? There is opposite as light and darkness, tall and short, and so on. Basically, is there an opposite at all? We say there is an opposite in the world of psyche, in the world of spirit. We say there is the good and the bad, the good and the evil. Is good the opposite of evil? If it is the opposite, then it has its root in its own opposite. If evil is the opposite of the good, then that evil has a relationship with the good. The opposite is put together by thought. Either the good is totally divorced from evil or it is the outcome, the opposite, the invention, of thought as the good. So what is the good? Let us enquire into that.
What is the good? According to the dictionary, the common usage of that word means good behaviour, good in the sense of being whole, not fragmented but having that sense or understanding of the nature of the wholeness of life, and in that there is no fragmentation as the evil. But if evil is the outcome of the good, then that evil has a relationship with the good. We are enquiring together if there is an opposite in our life, if there is hate and love. Can love have a relationship with hate, with jealousy? If hate has a relationship with love, then it is not love. Obviously. If I hate someone, and at the same time talk about love, it is incompatible. The two don't meet. We are questioning, is there an opposite at all? Where there is an opposite, there must be conflict. I hate, and also I think I love him. The opposite of hate is not love. The opposite of hate is still hate.
So, that is one of the factors of disorder in our life: the ideal, the opposite and the acceptance of so-called spiritual authority. There is the authority of law, the authority of government, the authority of a policeman, the authority of a good surgeon. But psychologically, inwardly, why do we accept authority - the authority of the priest, the authority of a book, the authority of a guru? When we follow somebody and be guided by somebody, guided what to believe and what not to believe, to accept his system of enlightenment and so on, what is happening to our own brain, to our own inward state? You are my guru. You tell me what to do, what to think, what to believe and the various steps I must take to attain enlightenment or whatever they call it, and I, rather gullible, want to escape from my life which is disorderly, corrupt, insecure. I trust the guru. I give him my life and say I surrender, I give part of my life in attaining that enlightenment. Why do I do that? Because I want some kind of security, some kind of assurance, that I will have some day some kind of happiness, some kind of release from my daily worries and misery. The guru gives you an assurance and you feel satisfied. But you never question the guru, you never doubt what he is saying, you never discuss with him; you accept. That has been the condition of human beings right throughout the world for millions of years. The interpreter between god and you, between that which is holy and you - and you, wanting comfort, security, will accept him without a single doubt.
Now, to question spiritual authority - whether it is Christian authority or the spiritual authority of Islam with their book, or your guru with his statement - to question, to doubt it, is to rely entirely on yourself, be a light to oneself, and that light cannot be lit by another. It requires your questioning, your demanding, of not only the outer, the spiritual authority, but of yourself - why you believe - so that your own mind becomes clear, strong, vital, so that there is energy for creative activity. But when you follow somebody, your brain becomes dull, routine, mechanical, which is the very destructive nature of the human mind, or human brain. So please see why this disorder exists in our life, and when you begin to investigate into this disorder, then out of that disorder comes order. When there is the dissipation of causes of disorder, there is order. Then you don't have to pursue what is order. Order is virtue, order means freedom.
We have to enquire also into what is freedom. We have said that where there is order in our life, total order, that order is virtue and that very order is freedom. The word `freedom' is misused by everybody. There is freedom from something and there is freedom. Freedom from something is not freedom. We will go into that. I am a prisoner, prisoner of my own ideas, of my own theories, of my own conceptions, and my brain is a prisoner to that. Then freedom is, to be free from my prison to fall into another prison. I free myself from one particular conditioning and, unknowingly or unconsciously, fall into another conditioning. So freedom is from something; from anger, from jealousy; all that is not freedom at all. Freedom means free, not from something. This requires a great deal of enquiry, which is, our brain is conditioned like a computer, programmed to be a Hindu, programmed to be a Muslim, Christian, and so on. The computer is programmed; our brain has been programmed for thousands of years, which is our conditioning. Freedom is the ending of that conditioning. Where there is an end to conditioning, then only there is freedom. Without having that freedom, there must be disorder. So the ideal, the opposite, the pursuit of spiritual authority and accepting the conditioning that we are Hindus, Muslims and so on - all that brings disorder. When there is an end to that, there is order. You will say that it is impossible, impossible not to follow somebody because you are so uncertain, so insecure, and you are willing to follow somebody so easily, which means your brain is becoming dull, inactive. You may be active physically, but psychologically, inwardly, you cease to be active.
We ought to talk over together sorrow, whether there is an end to sorrow. When there is an end to sorrow, then only there is love, then only there is compassion. What is sorrow, grief, pain, a feeling of loneliness, the sense of isolation? What is the nature of sorrow? What is the cause of sorrow. which is pain, fear, a sense of desperate loneliness? Why have human beings, from time immemorial, suffered and are still suffering, not from physical pain, some fatal disease or a feeling of utter rejection, but from the nature of suffering inwardly - the pain, the fears and the escape from it? I wonder if we have realized that for the last thousand years there have been many wars, and how many people have cried, mothers have shed tears! The pain, the anxiety, the hope, all that constitute sorrow, and this sorrow exists in all the days of our life, and we never seem to be free of it, completely ending that sorrow.
We together will go into this because, there is an end to sorrow. Sorrow comes with the loss of somebody, with the death of somebody. My son - I have lost him; there is grief and tears and great sense of loneliness. Then, in that state of shock, in that state of pain, anxiety, loneliness, I seek comfort, I want to escape from this agony. I escape through every form of entertainment, whether it is the drug, the alcohol, the temple, mosque or the church. I begin to invent all kinds of fanciful concepts. I lost him, he is dead, gone, and there is that pain. Can one remain with that pain? Can I look at that pain, hold it, hold it as a precious jewel - not escape, not suppress, not rationalize it, not seek the cause of it, but hold it as a vessel holds water? Hold this thing called sorrow, the pain, that is, I have lost my son and I am lonely, not to escape from that loneliness, not to suppress it, not to intellectually rationalize it, but to look at that loneliness, understand the depth of it, the nature of it. Loneliness is total isolation which is brought about through our daily activity of selfish ambitions or ideological ambitions, competitions, each one out for himself. Those are the activities which bring about loneliness. But if you run away from it, you will never solve sorrow. The very word `sorrow' etymologically means passion. Most of us have no passion. We may have lust, we may have ambition, we may want to become rich; we donate our energies to all that. But that does not bring about passion. Only with the ending of sorrow there is passion. That is total energy, not limited by thought. So it is important to understand the nature of suffering and the ending of it. The ending of it is to hold that sorrow, that pain, too. Look at it. It is a marvellous thing to know how to hold the pain and look at it, be with it, live with it, not get bitter, cynical, but to see the nature of sorrow. There is beauty in that sorrow, depth in that sorrow.
We also have to talk over together what is love. What does that word mean to you? If you are asked in a drawing room what is the meaning of that word to you, what would you answer? What do you mean by that? I love playing golf, I love to read, I love my wife, I love god. Is that love? Do you love your wife? Do you love your husband? Do you love your friend? We are enquiring into what is love. This is very important to enquire because without love, life is empty. You may have all the riches of the earth, you may be a great banker, great scientist, mathematician, great technician, capable of great technology, but without love you are lost, an empty shell. Together we are going to find not what love is, but what is not love. That is, through negation come to the positive. Is jealousy love, jealousy in which there is attachment, anxiety? In jealousy there is hate. Is that love? You are attached to your family, you are attached to a person or an idea or a concept or a conclusion. What are the implications of your attachment? Suppose I am married, I am attached to my wife. What does it mean? Where there is attachment, there is fear. Where there is attachment, there is possessiveness. When there is attachment to an ideal, to a concept, to a belief, or to a person with all the consequences of jealousy, anger, hatred, suspicion, surely all that is not love. To understand the nature of love, is it possible to be totally free from attachment? Please ask this question of yourself.
You are all attached to something or the other. If I may suggest, most respectfully, become aware of the consequences of that attachment. If you are attached to an ideal, you are always on the defensive, or aggressive. If you come to a conclusion, to hold on to that conclusion is to end all further enquiry. Where there is attachment, there must be pain. I am attached to my wife and she may run away, she may look at another man, or she may die. In attachment, there is always fear, there is always anxiety, suspicion, watching. Surely, that is not love. So, can one be totally free of all attachment? It is up to you, but when you are attached, there is no love. Because, in that attachment there is fear. Fear is not love. And the ambitious man who wants to climb the ladder of success has no love because he is concerned with himself, with his achievements, which is the gathering of power, position, prestige. How can such a man love another? He may have a family, children, but in that man there is no love. When you say, `I love god as the highest principle', is that also love? That god, that principle, the highest principle `Brahman', is the result of thought. God is invented by man. I am sure you won't like this. But you are attached to that concept: god exists. Then you ask who is the creator of all this misery. God hasn't created all this, has he? If he has, he must be an odd god, he must be a sadist god. All the gods in the world are invented by thought, and to find out what love is, there must be an end to sorrow, end to attachment, end to everything we are committed to inwardly. Where the self, the ego, the me is, love is not. You hear all this, and you will walk away from here with the same attachment, with the same convictions, and never enquire further because the more you enquire about all this, the more life becomes dangerous. Because you may have to give up a lot of things naturally, easily, not as self-sacrifice. You have to understand the nature of attachment and be free from it. You have to realize that when you see the truth of something, you are standing completely alone, and that you may perceive that, and of that you are frightened. You may believe, see the truth inwardly of the nature of attachment, but as you don't want to quarrel with your wife, or husband, you accept. Gradually you become hypocrites.
Also we should discuss the nature of intelligence. Compassion has its own intelligence, love has its own intelligence. We are going to enquire into what is intelligence. Surely, it cannot be bought in books. Knowledge is not intelligence. Where there is love, compassion, it has the beauty of its own intelligence. Compassion cannot exist if you are a Hindu, or a Catholic, Protestant or a Buddhist, or a Marxist. Love is not the product of thought. In understanding the nature of love, compassion, which is to deny all that which is not, to see that which is false as false, is the beginning of intelligence. To see the truth in the false is the beginning of intelligence. To see the nature of disorder and end it, not carry on day after day but to end it - the ending is the immediate perception which is intelligence.
We are enquiring into what is intelligence. Cleverness is not intelligence. Having a great deal of knowledge about various subjects - mathematics, history, science, poetry, painting - that is not the activity of intelligence. The investigator into the atom may have an extraordinary capacity of concentration, imagination, probing, questioning, formulating hypothesis after hypothesis, theory, after theory, but all that is not intelligence. Intelligence is the activity of the wholeness of life, and that intelligence is not yours or mine. It does not belong to any country or to any people, like love is not Christian love or Hindu love, and so on. So, please enquire into all this because our life depends on all this. We are unfortunate miserable people, always in travail, always in conflict. We have accepted it as the way of life. But in enquiring into all this, there is awakening of that intelligence, and when that intelligence is in operation, in action, there is only right action.
J. Krishnamurti Mind Without Measure Talks in Calcutta 4th Public Talk 28th November, 1982 `The Meaning of Daily Living'
We have been talking about so many things, so many human problems, and we ought to consider this evening several things more. You and the speaker have to think together, not agree, not disregard or reject. Thought has been responsible for all the miseries of human beings, though it has created in the world of technology most extraordinary things. It seems so utterly urgent and necessary that we should think together, cooperate together, find out for ourselves because there is no more any leader, no politician, no guru. We are utterly and totally responsible for ourselves. As the crisis is great, we ought to be able to think together, and apparently that is one of the most difficult things to do because each one of us has so many opinions, so many conclusions, which prevent our coming together. To think together means to put aside all your personal prejudices, bias, opinions and various forms of conclusions which actually prevent communication with each other. We could put all that aside and so find out for ourselves the truth, the actuality of life, look at it without any bias; not as a communist, Marxist, socialist, or belonging to some sect or religion or nationality, but together look very closely at our lives. Nobody is going to change our lives; no environment, no authority, no book. We have to look together at ourselves as we are and explore with great depth the meaning of existence, the meaning of our lives, the significance of our activities.
Let us together look at the whole existence of our life. Going to the office day after day for the next 40/50 years and then dying at the end of it - the ugliness and brutality of it all. We should be able to look at this whole existence of our life, of each one's life, to observe it, not direct it, not to ask ourselves what is the goal, what should I do, but first to get acquainted, to understand ourselves, to understand what actually we are, why we do certain things, why we belong to this or to that. It is important that we look at our life. If you observe closely, you will see that your life is fragmented, broken up. Either you are a businessman or a doctor or a surgeon or an engineer, and in your own personal life there is always this division between you and another, however intimate. There is always this division, this struggle, this pain. Of course, there is some kind of joy, pleasure, but that is also part of life. Our life, as it is now, is broken up, fragmented, and this fragmentation takes place because our thinking is also fragmentary.
Our thinking is the outcome of knowledge, and knowledge is always limited. Knowledge always goes hand in hand with ignorance. There is no complete knowledge about anything. Our thinking, which is born out of our knowledge, is always limited under all circumstances, whether you are a scientist or a psychologist or an engineer, and so on. So thought, thinking, is limited, circumscribed, and what is limited must inevitably, in its action, create fragmentation. Thought itself is the cause of all division, of all fragmentation. Unless one understands the nature and the structure of thought, one cannot go very far, and to go very far you must begin very near, which is you, how you think, what you think, and discover for yourself that thought always is limited. Thought can invent god, the immeasurable, the nameless, the invisible, the supreme, but it is still the product of thought. So thought is one of the major factors of our conflict, of our misery, of our sorrow. Unless one understands this basically, very deeply, not intellectually, not verbally or argumentatively or logically, unless you understand the nature of thinking, you cannot begin to discover for yourself a new instrument, a totally different instrument. Because, the only instrument we have now is thought, and thought has created incredible problems, most complex problems, and thought tries to solve those problems and thereby creates more problems. You must have noticed this politically, religiously, and so on. We must find together a new instrument, and that is what we are going to do when we talk about death, religion, meditation. And to understand, to discover, and to come upon something that is not man-made, that something must be beyond time, beyond all measure.
It is much more important to understand what happens before death rather than what happens after death. We are always enquiring what happens after death, but we never enquire what is happening before death, not at the last day or the last minute but the way we live for thirty, forty, fifty years or more. Time is death, time - which is the inward time, the psychological time, the time that has created the idea of thought, `I hope to become something, I hope to become rich, I hope to become a saint, or a particular person.' The inward time, the psychological time of hope, of achievement, of that which is to change to become something else - all that involves time both physically and psychologically. We are talking about the psychological time, a time that is inside the skin as it were - that time is death. To think in terms of time is to bring about division, fragmentation, give the future greater significance than the present.
Time is a movement invented by thought. Psychological time is invented by thought, and thought itself is the product of time. Thought is the product of time because man has acquired knowledge through long evolution; evolution implies time, and when we think in terms of time, we divide life, we fragment life - I am a Hindu, you are a Buddhist, I am a Muslim, you are a Christian, and so on. This fragmentation is the result of thought which itself is limited. And psychological time is invented by thought. When you say, `I am, I will be, I am this but I will one day be different,' that gap between what you are and what you should be or what you want to be, is time. When you have such time, there must be fragmentation. Life which is being lived now, in that life we have separated death from living.
We never enquire deeply what happens long before death, what happens to our life. Very few people ask that. They are all concerned with what happens after death - whether you will live, whether you will meet your brother, and so on, but not with the long period of thirty, forty, fifty years which is far more important than what happens after. So, we are going to examine, observe, what our life is. Because, if we don't understand that profoundly, when you meet death, then you are frightened, then you are totally blind to everything. We ought to investigate our life which we live daily, whether it has any significance at all, whether it has any value, depth, beauty. Perhaps you go to the office from nine to five for the rest of your life. Have you ever thought about what a tragedy it is? And what are you working for? You will say, `My responsibility, my duty to my family, I must earn money, therefore I go to the office from nine to five for the next 60 years; then I retire, and then die. That is one of the factors of our daily existence. There, in the office or in the factory, you are struggling, you are competing, you want to become the manager, the clerk wants to become the executive, the priest wants to become the bishop, and so on. You come home, weary, insulted, bored. What do you call home - just the roof, half a dozen rooms, or one room? What is a home? Have you ever thought about all this? What does that word `home' mean to you? Is it just to live there, eat, sex, children, quarrelling, arguing, discussing, bullying each other or withdrawing from it all, becoming a monk, a sannyasi? You can't withdraw from life; you may put on different robes, but life is where you are, what you are, and during these 40/50 years, there is constant struggle, constant conflict, pain, little joy, the pursuit of pleasure and facing the inevitable death. That is our life, put in a nutshell. You can't deny it; it is so. Now this is the life of every human being on earth, whether he lives in an affluent society or under a dictatorship or in a totalitarian state, whether he is Marxist, Leninist or democrat. This is his life - pain, struggle, conflict, working from morning till night. Do you know what happens to such a human being, his capacity to think? This is the state of every human being, that is his consciousness.
You are actually the rest of mankind. This is not a logical conclusion, this is a fact. You must understand this fact; otherwise, as we talk about death furthermore, you won't understand the significance of it, which is your consciousness with its content. The content is the belief, the dogma, the name, the form, the pain, anxiety, loneliness, depression, desire; all that is you. All that is what you are actually. This consciousness is the consciousness of all human beings. If you feel the depth of it, the extraordinary beauty of it, the strength of it, that you are the rest of mankind, that it is a fact, and when you feel it in your blood, in your heart, in your mind, then you are no longer an individual. I know it is difficult for you to swallow this or even to think about it because you are conditioned to be an individual, but you are not. You may be tall, you may be short or clever, and so on, but inside you are like the rest of mankind.
If you are the rest of mankind, you are mankind. Then what is your responsibility to man? What is your responsibility to what is happening in the world? Probably, you have never asked this question of yourself. You say my responsibility is to my family, to my country. But the idea of your country is just another invention of thought. When you ask the question what is my responsibility to the rest of mankind, you have to find out for yourself what is your responsibility, what is right action. You can't escape from it. You may limit yourself to certain immediate responsibilities, but you as a human being who is the rest of mankind, you are also responsible for mankind. So your consciousness is not yours. It is shared by all human beings living on this earth. They all go through every kind of misery, every kind of suffering - pain, anxiety, despair and the feeling of utter loneliness. If you are at all aware of what is happening in the world, then you will have to ask yourself what is your responsibility, what is your action.
Now, you think you are an individual, you think you are separate from the rest of mankind, and then you ask, `What happens to me after I die, do I not incarnate?' Let us examine that very closely. What are you? When you say, I want to be born next life, I believe in reincarnation, and so on, what is it that is going to be reborn? What are you? Let us examine it together dispassionately. You are the name, the form, the body. You are what you think, you are the result of your education, if you have had one. And the education is so rotten, it only conditions you to become some engineer, clerk, or this or that. You are not educated to understand the beauty, the wholeness of life. You are given a lot of knowledge so that you can act either skilfully or not, in the world. That is not education. That is one very small part of education. Education is the cultivation of the whole human being, the unfoldment, the flowering of a human mind, not crippling by specialization. So what are you? Are you a series of words, a series of ideas, a repetitive memory, a continuity of conviction? That is all. It is so. This is a verbal structure. But you will say that is not all, there is something much deeper. When you say there is something much deeper, god or atman or whatever you like to call it - the soul as the Christians do, and you call it by another name - when you say I am not all that, I am much more, there is a fragment of light in me; when you say there is something more than mere physical attributes, more than mere conclusions, concepts, beliefs and words, there is something beyond; when you say you are more than that, it is also the invention of thought, obviously. You are put together by thought. You call yourself a Hindu, and another calls himself a Muslim, and so on. All that division is the result of thought. You are actually a series of memories, a series of reactions and responses based on your knowledge, your experience, your quality of mind. That is what you are, which is essentially death. You are living in the past and the past is death. All knowledge is in the past, and therefore, when you live with knowledge which is the past, and as the past is over, what are you? Look at yourself as you would look in a mirror. That is what you are. And you say, `If I die, I incarnate in another', which is to carry the same thing over to the next life. If you do believe in future life, that is, next life, then what you do now matters more because next life you will pay for it. This is your conviction. This is what you cling to, a lot of memories which are dead ideas, which are also finished. So the content of your life is that. That is why this country which believes in so many things, so many beliefs, so many superstitions, believes in reincarnation. That is why here there is a slow dying.
Now, the question then is, what is death? Please ask this question: Are you just the vast reservoir of memory, words, pictures, symbols? Is your consciousness the rest of mankind, that you are not an individual? That what you think, other people think, your thinking, is not individual and that there is only thinking? When you realize you are not an individual though you may have a different form, different shape of head, different jobs, and so on, but that inwardly you are like the rest of mankind, what does death mean then? Look, sir. Suppose I am all that - name, thought, education, physical responses, psychological reactions, all the inherited racial memories and personal memories, which is all in the past, I am all that and all human beings are that, all human consciousness is that, then what does it mean to die? Ask this question, sirs. Now we are living, repetitively active, mechanically active, as most people are; but you are active, you have got life, you have got feelings, you have got responses, sensations, and when death comes, all that is wiped out. That is what we call death, which is to end all the things you have held, your joys, your house, your bank account, your wife, your children; all that you end; you and your attachment, that is death. But you want to carry it over to the next life which is just an idea, vision, fulfilment. Please listen: While living, can you end attachment? Because, when you die, all attachment ends. But can you invite the ending of attachment? Do you understand this? That is ending. Ending is death. So, can you, while living, vigorous, active, end your attachment, end a particular habit voluntarily, easily, quietly? Because then, where there is an ending, there is a totally different beginning. When you end something like attachment, there is a different activity going on: to incarnate in the present now. That is creativity. It is up to you if you want to do all this.
We ought to talk over together what is religion, what is a religious life, what is a religious mind. We are going to enquire together what is a religious life, what is meditation, and if there is anything that has not been touched by thought. Do you call the present religions all throughout the world as religious? You are a Hindu, you believe, your religion says this and that, you worship an idol; the Muslim does not, but he has his own form of worship. The Christian has his symbol - the rituals, the dogmas, the beliefs, the superstitions, all that. The hierarchical structure of a religious society, you call all that religion. Your belief is god. Unless you believe in god or some supreme principle, it is considered that you are not religious. We say to ourselves, `There must be something more, something which is protecting, which is giving, which is creating.' Thought creates the idea, based on books, tradition, being programmed to believe in god. That surely is not religion. Do you agree with that? Of course not. But that is not religion: your belief, your worship, going to the temple, to the mosque, to the church, repeating some phrases utterly divorced from daily life. To understand the daily life, to bring about a radical change in that life, to have a brain that is not superstitious - that is actually facing facts, facing what one is and going beyond `what is'. That is the beginning of what is a religious mind. To understand the whole meaning of daily living, which is the understanding of the relationship with each other, to love, to have that quality of love, to have that perfume. that beauty, that flame, that is religion. That is the religious mind, To live a life that has no conflict, that has the sense of compassion with love, with intelligence, that is a religious life. Compassion is intelligence. That is the religious life. But that is not enough. We have to understand much deeper things, which is what is meditation.
What is meditation? Is it sitting in a certain posture, closing your eyes, repeating some phrases, some mantra? The word mantra means in Sanskrit, to ponder over, consider, not becoming. When you are not becoming, what are you? Also that word mantra means to resolve and put away self-centred activity. That is the real meaning of that word mantra. Now, look at what you have done with it. You repeat some words and call that mantra. As we said, a religious life is not becoming inwardly anything; we must go much deeper than that. Meditation is the ending of measurement. I will go into it. So what is meditation, not how to meditate. When you put the `how', when you use that word `how', that means, `give me a system, please tell me what to do, show me the path.' If you can remove that word `how' altogether from your mind, and then look at it, what is meditation? Systems, methods, practices, certain forms of discipline, breathing correctly, deeply, and so on, all that is not meditation. It is an exchange, a market place where the guru sells you something and you practise. We are going to see what meditation is. Meditation is not the practice of any system. Because, when you practise a system, your brain becomes atrophied, becomes dull. It is not alive, active. If you are really, deeply, concerned with meditation, then there is no system, no method. Practising every day, sitting half an hour quietly, is not meditation. Can you deny all that intelligently because you see the absurdity of practising a method, as it brings up a routine? Whereas in meditation, there must be freedom - freedom from fear, freedom from envy, greed, sorrow and all the psychological wounds and hurts one has received from childhood. One should be free from all that.
So, we have to enquire first what it means to be aware. It means three things - what it means to be aware, what it means to concentrate, and what it means to attend. Because, all this is implied in meditation - to be aware, to be conscious of your environment, to be aware how you talk, how you walk, how you eat, what you eat; to be aware how you speak to another, how you treat another, as you are sitting there, to be aware of your neighbour, the colour of the coat, the way he looks. Without criticism just be aware. That gives you great sensitivity, empathy, so that your body is subtle, sensitive, aware of everything that is going on around you. To be aware without any choice, see where you are, looking at the speaker, looking all around you without a single choice, just look - to be aware.
Then, let us look at concentration. When you concentrate, what happens? To control all thought except one thought, which is to concentrate on something, concentrate on a book, concentrate on what you are doing, concentrate which means, shut off all other thought except one thought, to centralize all thinking to a particular point - that is what generally concentration means. That is, while you are trying to concentrate, all other thoughts are wandering, pushing, coming in and out. So you build a resistance to every other thought except one thought, one idea. Look at it. That is generally what is called concentration.
Then, there is attention. Have you ever attended to anything, given your whole energy, listened totally to another, completely attended? Not like a soldier who is drilled to attend, but if you understand the nature of awareness, concentration, then what is attention? If you are attending now completely to what is being said, in that attention there is no centre as the `me'. Are you so attending to what is being said? That is, giving all your energy, listening vibrantly, alive to attend? If you are, then you will find there is no centre as the `me' attending. Then, when you are attending so deeply, the brain becomes quiet, naturally. There is no chattering, there is no control. Who is the controller to control thought? The controller is another part of thought, isn't it? One part of thought says, `I am the witness, I am going to control my thought.' The controller is the controlled. In meditation there is no controller, there is no activity of will, which is desire. Then, the brain, the whole movement of the brain - apart from its own anxiety which has its own rhythm - becomes utterly quiet, silent. It is not the silence cultivated by thought. It is the silence of intelligence, the silence of supreme intelligence. In that silence comes that which is not touched by thought, by endeavour, by effort. It is the way of intelligence which is the way of compassion. Then that which is sacred is everlasting. That is meditation. Such a life is religious life. In that there is great beauty.
J. Krishnamurti Mind Without Measure Talks in Madras 1st Public Talk 25th December, 1982 `The Nature and Content of Thought'
We are going to talk over together a great many things relating to our daily life. This is not a lecture as it is commonly understood, but this is a conversation between two friends who are concerned not only with what is happening in the world externally, environmentally, but also with what is happening to the human being. What is happening to our brain, to our conduct; why have we human beings who have lived on this earth, perhaps million years or more, so degenerated without any stamina, without any integrity? We are not merely listening to a series of ideas or some conclusions or some new principles and values, but together you and the speaker are going to examine closely, hesitantly, carefully, what is happening in the external world, and what is happening to us in our own daily life, the inner life. So, we are having a conversation together about all this. If you hold on to your opinion however slight or obstinate, then it will not be possible to have a conversation or communicate with each other. That must be clearly understood from the very beginning of these talks, that you and the speaker are going to examine not from any religious point of view or as a communist, socialist, Marxist, conservative, or as belonging to the left or right, or belonging to any nation, but we are going to examine in freedom. To examine, one must have a free mind, not an opinionated mind, not a traditional mind, not belonging to any sect, to any order, to any religious group or to any institution. There are the threats of war, of nuclear or conventional war; there is decline of all religions; there is no moral activity; but most of us are living superficially, intellectually, never examining, never questioning, never doubting, all that is going on in the world. And to examine, probe, observe, requires a very clear mind and heart, a brain that is not held by any tradition. The brain is already conditioned. The human brain has evolved through millennia. If we are not aware of the activities of our own sensory responses, to examine and to observe what is going on in the world becomes almost impossible.
Let us talk together like two human beings, as friends, not imposing any ideas on each other, any dogmatic argumentative conclusions; as two friends who have known each other for some time, sitting under a lovely tree in a cool climate and looking at the world. What is the world? What is it that is happening out there? Who has created it? Why has man become what he is, thoughtless, careless, indifferent, without any love, brutal, violent? Why have we become like this? You might blame our inheritance, you might blame our environment, our culture or society. But who has created this society? Each one of us, the past generation and the present generation, is contributing to it. We have created this world, and there is no escape from that fact. Each one of us has contributed to that chaos, to the mess, the disorder, the anarchy that is going on.
Thought has divided the world into nationalities, and nationalities are one of the causes of war. Nationality, devised by thought in its search for security, has divided the world into the British, the French, the Muslim, Pakistani, Russian, and so on, and thought has created war through this division and the preparations of war for killing other human beings; thought has been responsible for this. In its search to be safe, secure, to find somewhere or other a sense of safety, it begins with the family, community, then a larger group and a wider group, hoping thereby to find some kind of safety, protection, security. It begins with a small group and ends up in nationalities. All the governments are supporting this crazy system of dividing people into nationalities, into groups - as the Hindus and the Muslims, the Chinese and the Russians, the Americans and the British and the French, and so on. Thought has been responsible for the division of religions - the Christian, the Buddhist, the Hindu, the Muslim, and so on. Thought has created the marvellous cathedrals, the great mosques and the lovely temples. Thought has put in these temples, mosques and churches the things that are invented by thought: the rituals, the dogmas, all the ceremonies, etc. Thought has also been responsible for the extraordinary development of techniques. Very few of us know actually what is going on in the technological world; the terrible things they are doing biologically, inventing great instruments of destruction of man - this is the vast unlimited movement of technology; and also thought has organized mass killings in the name of peace, in the name of the country, in the name of god. So, there is a great conflict going on, for which thought is responsible. Thought has brought about great hygienic benefits, communications, rapid transport, and all that. The brain is infinitely capable, and that capacity, that energy of thought has created this world of technology with all the problems it involves - social and environmental; and thought also has created havoc in our daily life, in our relationship with each other, between man and woman. We are saying that thought is responsible for all the miseries it has brought about in the world. Thought has also done great things to humanity. Please do not deny or accept what the speaker is saying. He is putting this forward for you to examine, to question, to doubt, not to accept nor to agree.
So, we must together examine very carefully what is the source of thought, why thought has created such havoc in the world, whether thought can ever have as its companion love, or is love entirely different from the activities of thought. Is it possible to examine without any sense of authority, without any sense of belonging to any group, and go beyond the present confusion and chaos? Please listen; do not agree. but listen to find out. We have to be both the teacher and the disciple. The meaning of that word `disciple' is he who learns. Also we must be the teacher. The very act of learning gives us the responsibility to teach. So, we are going together to learn, not hold on to our own traditions, to our own opinions and conclusions; then that prevents us from learning, not from the speaker, but learning through observation, learning through the investigation of the nature of thought and the nature of the brain - not the physiological brain but the activities of a brain that is conditioned. So, first of all, we are going to examine together why the brain, which has evolved through thousands of years, which has gone through every kind of incident, accident, has become so limited. It is not limited in the technological world at all. It is moving with extraordinary rapidity. So, in one direction, in the direction of technology, the brain has infinite scope. The brain has put man on the moon, invented terrible things to kill human beings. Also technology has given man great comfort, hygiene, communication, and so on. But the brain is limited because it cannot go in any other direction but that direction. it is incapable at present to go inward, and if it can go in one direction, the outward direction, with such extraordinary vigour, extraordinary energy, then it can also go in the other direction, in the world of the psyche, the psychological world.
We are going to enquire together into the whole psychological world: why after all these thousands of years we live in conflict with each other; why man has become so miserable, unhappy, anxious, uncertain, hypocritical, dishonest, corrupt, suffering a great deal.
That is our inner world, the psychological realm into which very few have investigated deeply, profoundly. The psychologists, the theoreticians, the analysts, psychotherapists, have not solved all our human problems. They have written vast volumes about it, but we are still what we are. So, how do we investigate into something that is yourself, that is your consciousness? You are both the unconscious and the conscious, the whole realm of the inward activity which dictates the outer activity. If that inner activity is not in order, then you create a society as we have done, which is totally in disorder. You cannot create outward order unless there is inward order. Has one realized this fact, that the outward chaos, war, confusion, the brutality, the violence, the hatred, is the result of our own life, our own disorder, is the resulting conflict in our own consciousness? Can all this misery, confusion, conflict, anxiety, ever end? This question, whether it is possible to change radically the content of our consciousness, is far more serious than the nuclear war, or the neutron war, or whatever war that may be. The crisis is there, not in the world, not the nuclear war, not the terrible division, the brutality that is going on. The crisis is in our consciousness, the crisis is what we are, what we have become. Unless we meet that crisis, that challenge, we are going to perpetuate wars, destruction, and there will be outward chaos.
When there is great disturbance outwardly, uncertainty, insecurity, man turns back to tradition like the Muslim world is doing. They go back to the Koran, and in the Christian, Hindu world there are so many books that they cannot go back to the books, but they go back to tradition. We have now got tribal gods at every corner because the world has become uncertain, dangerous, and we are all doing the same. We want to belong to some group, some sect, some local god. Now, how does one enquire into the psychological world, that is, into the world of consciousness? The content of that consciousness is what you are. That is not a dogmatic statement. That is not a conclusion but is a fact. What you are, is the content of your consciousness. Your beliefs, your opinions, your experiences, your illusions, superstitions, your gods, your fear, your pleasure and the loneliness, the sorrow, and the great grief and the fear of death. That is what you are. That is, the content of your consciousness is what you are. You can divide that content of your consciousness into various parts, invent a super consciousness, but it is still the content of your consciousness. You can meditate, sit cross-legged, do all those things, but it is part of your consciousness. And the content of your consciousness is put together by thought. Please examine this situation. We are saying, the content of your consciousness is put together by thought, by thinking, the thinking that you are a Hindu or a Christian, Marxist, Maoist or whatever you want to think. Thought, which is limited, has brought about limitations in consciousness. It can expand consciousness by thinking that it can expand and experiment in expansion. But it is still the activity of thought.
The question is, whether your consciousness which is the activity of the brain - brain with all its sensory responses, brain which is the centre of thought - whether that thought has not brought about fear, whether thought which is also movement in time is not responsible for the whole content of our consciousness. We are saying thought is limited because it is the outcome of knowledge. It is the result, the end product of experience, knowledge stored in the brain as memory; the response of any challenge is thinking. And knowledge is always limited. There is no complete knowledge about anything. The scientific knowledge is limited. Every kind of knowledge in any field is limited - biological, sociological, technological, and in the world of religions with all their gods, and all gods are invented by thought. Examine it, please. Thought has invented all the gods on earth, and then thought worships that which it has invented, and this you call religion. The root meaning of that word is quite difficult, and it has not been established what the root of that word is. So, thought is limited and whatever its activity, it is always limited, and being limited, it must inevitably create problems - not only problems in the technological world but also problems in human relationship which is far more important to understand than the technological world because, we human beings are perpetually in conflict with each other, agreeing, disagreeing, believing, and not believing. It is a perpetual war between human beings. It is created by thought. And having created the problems, then thought tries to solve them and so increase the problems, which is what is actually happening.
If one sees that, not intellectually, not as an idea or a conclusion but as an actuality, as a fact, then one can see that the only instrument that we have is thought. Please understand the nature and the content of thought. Thought is all the sensory responses, the imaginations, all the sexual symbols, the sexual pictures, and so on, the feeling of depression, elation, anxiety; all this is the result of limited thought, because thought is the outcome of limited knowledge.
There is no complete knowledge about anything. We ask a totally different question, which is, `Is there a different instrument?' If thought is not the instrument to solve human problems, then what is the instrument? Thought is a worn out instrument, blunt instrument. It may be clever, it may solve certain problems; but the problems it has created in human beings and between human beings, the instrument of thought that we have used to solve our problems in our daily life, in relationship, that instrument is blunt, limited, worn out. Unless we find a new instrument, there can be no fundamental, radical, change of human psyche. So, we are going together to enquire into the nature of that instrument, the quality of it, the structure of it, the beauty of it. But before we can enquire, one must be absolutely clear that the instrument which we have now as thought, has reached its tether. It cannot solve the problem of human relationship, and in that human relationship there is conflict, and out of that conflict we have created this society through our greed, through our brutality, through our violence.
We have to be absolutely, irrevocably, clear that thought is not the instrument to solve our human problems. We have tried every method of solving our human problems, surrendering ourselves to some ideals, to some guru, to some concept, to some conclusion - we have done all these things. We have followed all kinds of leaders - political, religious, various quacks, many gurus. And we are still what we are, slightly modified, little more observant, little more kindly, but basically, millennia after millennia, we are what we have been from the beginning of time. And the instrument that we have had, which is thought, can no longer solve our problems. This is very clear, and that requires great observation, questioning, doubting, asking, never accepting authority - the authority of the books, the hierarchical structure of our society, the authority of institutions, the authority of those who say , `I know.' A mind which is enquiring into the nature of a new quality and structure of a new instrument must be entirely free from authority, not the authority of the policeman, not the authority of the governments.
So, a mind that is enquiring into something requires great sensitivity, freedom; that demands a brain that is stable, not wobbly, sloppy. I do not know if you have noticed how our minds are sloppy. We go from one guru to another, specially in this country. We tolerate anything - the dirt, the squalor, the corruption, the tradition that is dead, and all the temple buildings which are absolutely meaningless, spreading all over the world. You watch all this and you observe all this, and a mind, a brain, that is enquiring must be extraordinarily free, have great sensitivity. I don't know if you have not noticed how limited our senses are; senses, which is, the observing optically, visually, hearing - to hear another so completely that you understand immediately what is being said, to have sympathy, empathy, the feeling of cooperation, feeling of affection, feeling of love. We have not got it here. But you love god, you love going to a temple, putting on ashes, belonging to some tribal god, because you are frightened, and where there is fear, there is no freedom of enquiry.
So, we are talking about our daily life, our conflicts, our loneliness, our despair, and none of those can be solved by thought. Then what is the instrument that will solve our problems? Don't wait for the speaker to tell you. Then the speaker becomes your guru, your leader, and the speaker does not want to be your guru, your authority; but go together, as two human beings concerned with humanity, because after all you are the rest of humanity. `The rest of humanity has also the same consciousness as yours. Every human being in the world suffers, is anxious, uncertain, confused, in tears, lonely. Your consciousness is not yours, it is as the rest of mankind. So you are mankind. It is not a mere intellectual, logical, analytical conclusion. It is a fact to be felt, realized, lived, that you are not a separate human being, that you are not an individual. That is a hard pill to swallow because we all think we are separate individuals with our own little brains. That is our conditioning, to think that each one of us is separate, but we are not. We are the result of thousands of years of humanity - their suffering, their loneliness, their despair, their excitement. their joy, their sex. What you think, others think, the great scientist thinks; so does the uneducated villager, poor and hungry, labouring from morning till night. So thinking is not your individual thinking. There is only thinking. You may think in one way, another may think another way. It is still thinking. So the thinking consciousness is shared by all human beings. And when one really realizes the fundamental truth of it, then your whole activity changes. Then you are concerned with the whole humanity, which means your son, your neighbour, your wife, your husband, the man who is miles away.
J. Krishnamurti Mind Without Measure Talks in Madras 2nd Public Talk 26th December, 1982 `Life is a Movement in Relationship'
We are together having a conversation. We are walking down a lane, wooded, with plenty of shadows and birds singing; we are sitting down together and talking about the whole problem of existence which is very complex. We are not convincing each other about any subject, we are not trying to persuade each other, we are not trying to overcome the other through arguments or sticking dogmatically to one's own opinions, prejudices, but rather, together we are going to look at the world as it is and the world that is within us.
Many volumes have been written about the world outside of us - the environment, the society, politics, economics, and so on, but very few have gone to the very length of discovering what we actually are. Why human beings are behaving as they are doing - killing each other, constantly in trouble, following some authority or the other, some book, some person, some ideal, and having no right relationship with their friends, with their wives, with their husbands and with their children; why human beings have become, after so many millennia, so vulgar, so brutal, so utterly lacking in care, consideration, attention to others, and denying the whole process of what is considered love. Outwardly, man has lived with wars for thousands and thousands of years. We are now trying to stop nuclear war but we will never stop wars. There has been no demonstration throughout the world to stop wars, but there are demonstrations against particular wars, and these wars have been going on - people being exploited, oppressed and the oppressor becoming the oppressed. This is the cycle of human existence with sorrow, loneliness, a great sense of depression, the mounting anxiety, the utter lack of security. There is no relationship with society or with one's own intimate persons, a relationship in which there is no row, no conflict, quarrels, oppression, and so on. This is the world we live in, which I am sure you all know.
As we said yesterday, look at the activities of thought, because, we live by thought. All our actions are based on thought, all our contemplated efforts are based on thought - our meditations, our 76 worships, our prayer. Thought has brought about the division of nationalities which create wars, the division in religions as the Jew, as the Arab, the Muslim, the Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, and so on. Thought has divided the world not only geographically but also psychologically, inwardly. Man is fragmented, broken up not only at the psychological, mechanical, level of his existence but also in his occupation. If you are a professor, you have your own small circle and live in that. If you are a businessman, you are in money making, or if you are a politician, you live within that area. And if you are a religious person, in the accepted sense of the word - doing various forms of puja, rituals, meditations, worshipping some idol, and so on - then also you live a fragmented life. Each fragment has its own energy, has its own capacity, has its own discipline, and each path plays an extraordinary role in contradicting the other path. You must know all this. This division - both outwardly, geographically, religiously, nationally, and the division that is between yourself and another, is such a waste of energy. It is a conflict: wasting our energy, quarrelling, dividing, each one pursuing his own thing, each one aspiring, demanding his own personal security, and so on. All action takes energy, all thinking takes energy. This energy which is so constantly being broken up is a wastage of energy. When one energy contradicts another, one action contradicts another action - saying one thing and doing another, which is obviously a hypocritical acceptance of life - there is wastage of energy. All such activities must invariably condition the mind, the brain. We are conditioned as a Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, Christian, with all the superstitions, beliefs. We are conditioned, and there is no question about it. There is no argument that we are not conditioned; we are, religiously, politically, geographically.
Until there is freedom from conditioning, freedom from the activities of thought which is creating great problems, those problems cannot possibly be solved. A new instrument is necessary to solve our human problems, and we are going to talk as we go along about it, but it is not for the speaker to tell you what the new quality of that instrument is; each one has to find for himself. That is why both of us must think together, if we can. That demands that both of us feel, enquire, search out, question, doubt, all these things that man has put together, all the things that we have created as barriers between each other. We as human beings living on this beautiful earth which is slowly being destroyed, living on this earth which is our earth - not the Indian earth or the British earth or the American earth - have to live intelligently, happily; but apparently, that is not possible because we are conditioned. This conditioning is like a computer: we are programmed. We are programmed to be Hindus, to be Muslims, to be Christians, Catholics, Protestants. For 2000 years the Christian world has been programmed and the brain has been conditioned through that programme, like the computer. So our brains are deeply conditioned and we are asking if it is at all possible to be free of that conditioning. Unless we are totally, completely, free of that limitation, mere enquiry or asking what is the new instrument which is not thought, has no meaning. 5 First, one must begin very near to go very far. We want to go so far without taking the first step, and perhaps the first step may be that last step. Are we understanding each other, are we communicating with each other, or am I talking to myself? If I am talking to myself, I can do this in my own room. But if we are talking, having a conversation together, that conversation has significance when both of us meet at the same level, with the same intensity, at the same time. That is love. That is the real, deep friendship. To me this is not a lecture in the ordinary sense of the word. We are together trying to enquire and resolve human problems. That requires a great deal of enquiry because human problems are very, very complex. One must have the quality of patience, which is not of time. We are all impatient to get on - `tell me quickly something or other' - but if you have patience, that is, if you are not trying to achieve something, to arrive at some end, some goal, then enquire step by step into it.
As we said, we are programmed. Our human brain is a mechanical process. Our thought is a materialistic process, and that thought has been conditioned to think as a Buddhist, as a Hindu, as a Christian, and so on. So our brain is conditioned. Is it possible to be free from that conditioning? There are those who say it is not possible, because they ask, how can a brain which has been conditioned for so many centuries upon centuries, how can that conditioning be wiped away completely so that the human brain is extraordinarily pristine, original, capable of infinite capacity? Many people assert this, and are merely satisfied in modifying the conditioning. But we are saying that this conditioning can be examined, can be observed, and there can be total freedom from that conditioning. To discover for ourselves whether it is possible or not, we have to enquire into our relationship.
Relationship is the mirror in which we see ourselves as we are. All life is a movement in relationship. There is no living thing on earth which is not related to something or other. Even the hermit, a man who goes off to a lonely spot, is related to the past, is related to those who are around him. There is no escape from relationship. In that relationship which is the mirror in which we can see ourselves, we can discover what we are, our reactions, our prejudices, our fears, depression, anxieties, loneliness, sorrow, pain, grief. We can also discover whether we love or there is no such thing as love. So, we will examine this question of relationship because that is the basis of love. That is the only thing we have now with each other. If you cannot find the right relationship, if you live your own particular narrow life apart from wife, husband, and so on, that isolated existence brings about its own destruction.
Relationship is the most extraordinarily important thing in life, If we don't understand that relationship, we cannot possibly create a new society. We are going to enquire very closely into what is relationship - why human beings throughout their long existence of life have never had a relationship in which there is neither oppression, possessiveness, attachment, contradiction, and so on. Why is there always this division - man, woman, we and they? We are going to examine together. This examination can be intellectual or merely verbal, but such intellectual comprehension has no value at all. It is just an idea, it is just a concept, but if you can look at your relationship as a whole, then perhaps you can see the depth and the beauty and the quality of relationship. Right, sir? Can we go on? We are asking, what actually is the present relationship with each other, not theoretically, not romantically, not idealistically, which are all unreal, but the actual, daily relationship of man, woman, with each other? Are we related at all? There is the biological relationship; our relationship is sexual, pleasurable. Our relationship is possessiveness, attachment, various forms of intrusion upon each other.
What is attachment? Why do we have such tremendous need for attachment? What are the implications of attachment? Why is one attached? When you are attached to anything, there is always fear in it, fear of losing it. There is always a sense of insecurity. Please observe it for yourself. There is always a sense of separation. I am attached to my wife. I am attached to her because she gives me pleasure sexually, gives me pleasure as a companion; you know all this, without my telling you. So, I am attached to her, which means I am jealous, frightened. Where there is jealousy, there is hatred. And is attachment love? That is one point to note in our relationship.
Then, in our relationship each one has, through the years, put together an image about the other. Those images she and he have created about each other is the actual relationship. They may sleep together, but the fact is that he and she have an image about each other, and in that relationship of images, how can there be any actual, factual, relationship with another? All of us from childhood have built images about ourselves and about others. We are asking a very, very serious question - can one live without a single image in our relationship? Surely, you all have an image about the speaker, haven't you? Obviously you have. Why? You don't know the speaker, actually you don't know. He sits on a platform, talks, but you have no relationship with him because you have an image about him. You have created an image about him, and you have your own personal images about yourself. You have got so many images about politicians, about businessmen, about the guru, about this and that. Can one live profoundly without a single image? Image may be conclusion about one's wife, image may be a picture, sexual picture, image may be some form of better relationship, and so on. Why do human beings have images at all? Please ask this question of yourself. When you have an image about another, that image gives you a sense of security.
Love is not thought. Love is not desire, love is not pleasure, love is not the movement of images, and as long as you have images about another, there is no love. And we ask, is it possible to live a life without a single image? Then you have a relationship with each other. As it is, it is like two parallel lines never meeting, except sexually. A man goes off to the office, ambitious, greedy, envious, trying to achieve a position in the business world, in the religious world, in the professional world, and the modern lady also goes off to the office, and they meet in their house to breed children. And then the whole problem of responsibility, problem of education, of total indifference, comes. It does not matter then what your children are, what happens to them. You want them to be like you - safely married, with a house, a job, etc. Right? This is our life, daily life, and it is really a sorrowful life. So, if one asks why human beings live by images - all your gods are images, the Christian god, the Muslim god and your god - you will see that they are created by thought, and thought is uncertain, fearful. There is no security in the things that thought has put together. Is it possible then to be free from our conditioning in our relationship? That is, to observe in the mirror of relationship attentively, closely, persistently, what our reactions are, whether they are mechanical, habitual, traditional. In that mirror you discover actually what you are. So, relationship is extraordinarily important.
We have to enquire into what it is to observe. How do you observe yourself what you are, in the mirror of relationship? What does it mean to observe? This is really another important thing one has to find out. What does it mean to look? When you look at a tree, which is the most beautiful thing on the earth, one of the most lovely things on the earth, how do you look at it? Do you ever look at it, do you ever look at the new moon - the shape of the new moon, so delicate, so fresh, so young; have you ever looked at it? Can you look at it without using the word `moon'? Are you really interested in all this? I will go on like a river that goes on. You are sitting on the banks of the river looking at the river, but you don't become the river ever because you never take part of the river, you never join the beauty of the movement that has no beginning and no end. So please consider what it is to observe. When you observe a tree, or a moon, something outside you, you always use the word - the tree, the moon; can you look at that moon, the tree, without naming it, without using the word to identify? Can you look without the word, without the content of the word, without identifying the word with the tree or the thing? Now, can you look at your wife, at your husband, at your children, without the word `my wife', without an image? Have you ever tried it? When you observe without a word, without a name, without the form you have created about her or him, in that observation there is no centre from which you observe. Then find out what happens. The word is thought. Thought is born out of memory. So you have the memory, the word, the thought, the image interfering between you and the other. Right? But here is no thought, thought in the sense, the word, the content of the word, the significance of the word to look, to observe. Then, in that observation, there is no centre as `me' looking at `you'. Then only there is a right relationship with another. In that, there is a quality of learning, a quality of certain beauty, certain sensitivity.
May we go on? Why do human beings throughout the world live in perpetual conflict? Please ask that question of yourself. You are in conflict. Your meditation is conflict, your worship is conflict. You have got various gods who are in conflict with each other and with you. Why do human beings throughout the world live in constant struggle, pain, conflict? What is conflict? What is the cause of conflict? Where there is a cause, that cause has an end. If I have a cause of pain, the doctor examines the cause and the symptom which is the pain. Then the cause may be removed. So where there is a cause or a causation, there must be an ending of that causation. So find out for yourself what is the cause of conflict by which man has lived from time immemorial. Don't wait for the speaker to tell you. Go into yourself as we are doing now. Find out what is the cause of this conflict, outside and inside. Is there one cause or many causes? If there are many causes, we can examine the many and slowly resolve each cause. One of the causes may be the constant attempt to become something - the becoming - I am this, I must be that; I am greedy and I hope I will not be greedy. That is to become something different from what I am: I am not beautiful but I will become beautiful; I am violent but I will become non-violent. So the becoming is a process of evolution. All becoming - whether the clerk becoming the manager, or the manager becoming the chairman - is a process of time which is evolution, from the low to the high. You plant a sapling which becomes a great tree, which is the evolution of the plant, of that tree. Is evolution one of the causes of conflict? That is, I am violent. All human beings apparently, most unfortunately, are violent. I am violent and I will become non-violent. The becoming from `what is' is a process of evolution which requires time, space. And we are asking, is evolution, this movement from `what is' to `what should be', which is the movement of evolution, one of the causes of conflict? Is time one of the causes of conflict, that is, duality - light and dark, man, woman, physical world? There is duality between good cloth and bad cloth, between nice dress which is tasteful, good material and bad material, between a good car and a bad car. Obviously, physically there is a difference; there is duality. And we are asking, inwardly, psychologically, is there a duality at all?
We are asking, does conflict exist as long as there is duality? Why have we psychologically, inwardly, duality? I am violent and I have thought I must not be violent, and so I invent an idea called non-violence which, in this country, is fashionable. And this fashion of non-violence is spreading all over the world, which has no meaning. Because violence is the fact, is real, non-violence is fiction. So there is only `what is', not `what should be', so that if one realizes that `what is' is a reality and not `what should be', then you can dispense with `what should be'. Then there is no duality. Do you understand this?
The moment there is the idea `I must not' or `I should, or, I will, away from `what is', then there must be conflict. Does one perceive this intellectually or actually - that there is no opposite psychologically, inwardly, but only `what is'? You deal with `what is', not `what should be'. I am violent, and this idea of non-violence is fictitious, is hypocritical. It has no value because, in becoming non-violent, I am sowing the seeds of violence all the time. So there is only violence. What is the nature and the structure of violence, not only to get angry, to hit somebody, to kill somebody, not only the killing of human beings but killing animals, killing nature? Violence is also imitation, conformity, trying to be something which you are not. Can one look at that violence with all the content of that word, not just physical anger or physical expression of that anger but to look at the whole content of that word and hold it, look at it, and not move away from it, neither suppress it nor escape from it nor transcend it but just look at it as you would look at a precious jewel? When you so look at it, are you looking at it as something separate from you or what you observe is what you are? This is important to understand. We are violent. That violence, we have said, is different from `me'. Therefore, I try to change it to become something else. That violence is me. I am not different from violence, greed or hate or jealousy. Suffering is me, but we have separated anger, jealousy, loneliness, sorrow, as something separate from me so that I can control it, shape it, run away from it; but if that is me, I can do nothing about it but just observe it. So the observer is the observed, the thinker is the thought, the experiencer is the experienced. The two are not separate.
So where there is division, there must be conflict. If I am separate psychologically from my wife, there is bound to be conflict. So time, evolution, the sense of the opposite, are the factors of violence. These are the other factors. All these factors are `me'. And `me' in essence is the cause of conflict. If I ask how am I to be free of `me', it is a wrong question, but observe the whole movement of conflict, not try to understand, but just observe, like you observe the marvellous movement of the skies, the ocean. Then it tells you all its content without your analysing. So a brain that is in conflict mechanically, psychologically, must inevitably bring about disorder in itself and so outwardly. Is it possible for human beings to be totally, completely, free of it? When there is that freedom, there is order, there is love, compassion, and that compassion is intelligence.
J. Krishnamurti Mind Without Measure Talks in Madras 3rd Public Talk 1st January, 1983 `On Time'
We have been talking over together, in a conversation between two people, the very complex process of our living from the time we are born till we die. We talked about whether it is possible at all to live a life without a single shadow of conflict - conflict in our relationship with each other, however intimate or far away. Conflict brings about disorder, and as long as each one of us lives in disorder, we cannot possibly bring about a psychological revolution in the structure of society. This evening we ought to talk over the nature of time, desire, fear, pleasure, and whether sorrow, which happens to be the lot of man throughout the world, has an end to it. Together you and the speaker are going to investigate the nature of time, explore desire which is very complex, and talk over together as to whether there is an end to sorrow. Because, where there is sorrow, there cannot be love, there can be no compassion, there can be no intelligence. So, it is important that you and the speaker meet at the same level, at the same time, with the same intensity. Otherwise, there will be no possibility of communication. One hopes we will meet on the same level because, the speaker has no authority, he is not telling you what to do, or what you should do with your life; but when we are together, discussing, having a dialogue over a problem, that problem is the concern of both the speaker and you. It is your concern as well as that of the speaker. Merely to meet at a verbal level, as most of us do, has very little significance because we are concerned with not physical revolution, but psychological revolution - inward, radical, fundamental change. We have lived for millennia after millennia, for thousands of years, with sorrow, pain, anxiety, loneliness, despair, fear and the pursuit of wandering desire, and man has always asked if there is a stop to time.
What is time? Time fundamentally means division, evolution, achievement, moving from here to there, the constant division as of yesterday, today and tomorrow - sun rising, sun setting, the full moon of a lovely evening and the time to meet your friend. Time is hope. Time is a very complex affair, and that requires patience. Patience is timeless; it is only impatience that has time. To enquire into the nature of time, one must have a great deal of patience, not impatience, not say `get on, I understand what you are talking about.' We have divided our life in a time movement. Movement is time. To go from here to there requires time. To learn a language requires time. To accumulate knowledge, to experience, looking forward to something as fear or as pleasure, the memories of yesterday, a thousand yesterdays, meeting the present, modifying and moving towards the future, all this is time. For a clerk to become the manager, to acquire any skill, requires time. The desire to experience something other than the usual experience and pursuit of that, is also time. Is there psychological time at all? Being violent, to become non-violent - that requires time. The pursuit of an ideal requires time. One has the fallacy that one will evolve into something totally different from `what is'. All this implies time. So we must together understand, not verbally, the feeling of time, the sense of time.
Time is memory - the past as the observer, observer observing what is happening, translating what is happening to his own conditioning, to his own experience, and so on. Time essentially means division. So outwardly to change, we imagine time is necessary; that eventually man who is divided, who has divided himself into nationalities, will become international and gradually drop all nationalistic tendencies and have a global relationship. We think all that requires time. Time is fundamentally a process of division. Outwardly, physically, time is necessary - like the seed growing into a great tree, that requires time, years. There is a tree in California which is over 5,000 years old. To come to that age, there have been many, many rains and storms and fires and lightning - which is all growth in time. We see that outwardly, physically, we need time; to acquire knowledge, the accumulating process of learning mathematics, physics or how to fly one of these jets, requires time. One cannot possibly escape from that time or try to find a stop to that kind of time. That will be utterly meaningless and foolish.
Now, we are together going to enquire if there is psychological time at all. We think time is necessary to change from one psychological or one sensory response to another. We think time is necessary to be free of violence, to be free of envy. I am envious but I need time to be free of that particular pain or pleasure. We are questioning whether there is time at all psychologically. Do you understand my question? To build a house you need time. To be educated - if you must be educated - needs time. But we are enquiring into something much more important, much more essential, because we are conditioned to the idea or the concept or to the illusion that time is necessary to change `what is' to `what should be'. We, the speaker and you, are questioning that - whether time is at all necessary for a radical change. Have I stated the question clearly so that we all meet it? We said time is division, division as I am, I should be. `I should be' requires time. Right? We are questioning that. We said there is no such thing as becoming something or experiencing something. Does enlightenment, of which many people talk, demand time? We are questioning the most fundamental thing. All our philosophy, our life, all the sacred books, have said that time is necessary; you must go through various disciplines, various practices, in order to come near whatever you call god, an experience which is beyond all measure, a state of mind that has not been touched by time.
We must go into the question very closely, whether there is psychological time at all. The moment you admit that there is psychological time, time being division, there must be conflict. I am violent, and to become non-violent I need time. There is a division immediately taking place. We are violent and we create the opposite. Where there is the opposite, there must be division and therefore, there must be conflict, and time is the cause of conflict. Look at it very simply. I am greedy, and to be non-greedy takes time. Where time comes into being, there must be conflict, and the becoming something is endless. We are asking, is there an end to violence in which there is no time at all? It is a very, very serious problem. We have accepted time, division, as a means of ending conflict. We are saying quite the contrary. Where there is division as `me' becoming something - the becoming something may be noble or whatever it is - that very division is the process of time; and that division, does it exist at all? That is, I am violent. That is the only fact I have. The other, non-violence, has no reality. It is just a concept, a structure of thought which cannot understand or end violence. It is the escaping process - the ideal. I am this, I will be that; that is measurement. All that implies psychological time. That is the illusion in which we live. We are questioning the reality of that. There is only `what is; there is only greed; there is only violence; there is only war.
Now we will go into it very carefully. Human beings are violent. Is it not important to find out whether it can end immediately? Is it not important to end it, not say, `I must become non-violent'? When you become non-violent, that involves a period of time. During that period you are sowing the seeds of violence. Is it possible to end violence or greed, anger or whatever you will immediately? Can you end the whole entirely of violence? What is violence? It is not merely anger - to injure another, to hate, to criticize, to wound another both physically and psychologically, to imitate, to conform - not merely physical aggression but the whole movement of violence. Can that movement totally end? To find that out, one must understand time as division. I have divided, thought has divided `what is' into `what should be'. We are now asking whether it is possible to end violence, greed, what you will, immediately, so that it never comes up again.
How do you observe violence? Violence is a sensory response. You have hurt me, I am wounded. My image about myself has been hurt. You might not physically hurt me, but you have wounded me inwardly because I have an image about myself as a great man or as a professor. That image has been hurt. To get over that hurt, I say, `Give me time.' All that is effort which is brought about by the division of time. So, is it possible to end violence so completely that it never comes back? That is why we are asking how do you look at, how do you perceive, violence. How do you look at a tree, the moon, the stars, the heavens and the beauty of night - how do you look at it? How do you look at your wife or your husband or your friend? Do you look at your wife or your husband or the tree or the moon or the rivers with the memories that you have had, with accumulated hurts, accumulated pleasures, companionship, stored in the brain as memory? Do you look at your wife and your husband with those memories? Memory is time. Where there is time, there must be division. Hence you have quarrels and all the rest of it in your relationship with another.
It is of the highest importance to find out how to observe, to observe a tree, which is one of the most beautiful things on earth. How do you look at it? When you use the word `tree' or the species of tree, you are not looking. The word, the remembrance, prevents you from looking. You want to look at your wife. Probably you have never looked at her. You have looked at her as your wife, your possession, your pleasure, sexually and in other ways. You have looked at her with all the memories of the last ten days or ten years or fifty years. Those memories come between her and you, and she has also her memories. So, it is very important to find out whether. one can look at a wife or a husband or a tree or moon or the flowing waters of a great river without the word, without the name, which is the past. Can you look at violence or greed or whatever you will without the word? The moment you use the word `violence', you have already put it in time. The moment you use the word which we have used a thousand times before, as violence, that very word is the factor of time. Do you see this? Therefore you have already brought about a division.
Now, can you observe your wife, your friend or the speaker without his reputation, look at him without any image? Can you look at your wife, at a tree, at a flower, without the movement of thought? The movement of thought is time. Thought divides as time divides. When you look, you are looking as the observer, who is the past, who is the word, who is the memory. The past divides, the past is time. It is in the mirror of relationship that you look at yourself as you would look in the mirror to look at your face. There you can perceive every movement of thought, every movement of reaction. So, the perceiver is the perceived, the analyser is the analysed. I want to experience something extraordinary. I am bored with all the experience I have had - sex and pleasure. I want to experience something ultra, something beyond all thought, and the experiencer is the experienced. A mind that does not demand experience is totally different. Therefore, we have to learn how to listen, how to observe, not accumulate how to listen, but just listen, just observe, without all the memory. Then you will see that which you observe, which is violence, and that there is no division between the observer and the observed. The observer is the violence. I wonder if you see that! When you are so alert, watching, observing, it is like putting great light on the thing which you observe. Then it disappears totally, never to return.
Now, we ought to talk over together what is desire because, time, desire and thought are the major factors of fear. What is desire? What is the wandering nature of desire, desire which is never content, the desire that all religions have said, suppress? Why have religious leaders all over the world, and all the books, said we must suppress our desire; desire is all right for god, but to desire a woman, desire a house, desire the lovely things of the earth, the beauty of a painting, the beauty of a statue, a poem of Keats, that you must not desire? We have learnt through the ages the art of suppressing desire or yielding to desire.
So, what is desire? - not the object of desire or the object creating the desire. Does the object create the desire or desire exists and the object varies? You must be clear on this point. You see a nice car, a nice shirt, a lovely house, a beautiful painting. That painting, house, the car, the woman, the man - does the object create the desire or desire exists and the objects don't matter? If the object creates desire, then it is a totally different investigation, but if desire exists and the nature of desire is not wandering from one thing to another, then it is difficult. We have to examine together what is the origin, the beginning, of desire; not how to control desire, not to suppress it, transcend it, but the beginning of it. If one can understand the origin, the source, of desire, then we can deal with it. If we don't ask the origin, the beginning, then we are merely trimming the branches of desire.
So, what is desire? We live by sensation. The reaction of our sensory responses is the activity of sensation. I see you well dressed, clean, healthy, beautiful, or whatever you are. I see it. The seeing is the beginning of sensory responses. The seeing, observing, contact and sensation are the responses of the senses. Right? Then what happens? I see a beautiful house, a lovely chalet in the mountains, beautifully built, strong. I see it, contact, touch it actually, and the sensation from it. Then what happens? This is really important to understand. I see a beautiful woman or a beautiful man. The very seeing of that beauty is a sensation, is it not? Then, what is the next step that takes place? You see a beautiful something, a statue which has been created by love and skill and matter. As you see it, sensation arises. You touch it, then what happens? Please find out for yourself. Then thought comes in and says, `How beautiful; I wish I had that statue in my room, I wish I was in that car, I wish I had that house.' At that moment when thought takes charge of sensation, at that precise moment, desire is born. Do you understand this, sir? Sensation is normal, healthy, vital; otherwise you are dead. To suppress sensation means you are dead, and probably that is what has happened here in this country. You read the Gita and Upanishads and all the sacred books and you follow guru after guru, discipline your desire, control it, suppress it, escape, and so on. Whereas, we are saving something entirely different. Can you follow the sensation, the immediate association of thought with the object, then thought saying, `How nice it would be if I sat in that beautiful car which has tremendous power behind it'? - then begins desire. Now, is it possible for thought not to intervene, not immediately, thought saying `I will see myself in the car'? Is there an interval between sensation and thought, so that thought does not immediately take charge, so that there is a gap? If there is a gap, what happens? That requires extraordinary skill and attention, to see where sensations are important, because, if your senses are not alive, you cannot see the beauty of the earth, the movement of the sea. So sensations, the sensory responses, are essential for life, but when thought controls, shapes, gives identity to sensation, then at that precise moment desire is born.
Can we find out, without control, without suppression, just see how thought is acting upon sensation, even verbally, even intellectually, and go into it very deeply, to have such alertness, such care, such affection, such love to see its nature, how desire is born? You have to see what thought is, how thought makes all life a problem. Thought is a material movement. Thought is limited because all knowledge, all experience, is limited. Thought springs from knowledge, experience, memory. And this whole process is limited. There is no complete knowledge about anything, can never be. Science, technology, is always adding more and more. So, time, desire, thought, are the factors of fear. I am afraid of what might happen to me because I have had an accident a couple of days ago or a year ago, and I am afraid it might happen again. I am watchful. There is fear. I am afraid of the dark, I am afraid of the wife, the husband, I am afraid of my boss. Aren't you all afraid? Don't be ashamed. It is the common lot of man. You may not want to acknowledge it, you may not want to face it, but you are frightened, and fear does terrible things to human beings. Mentally, psychologically, it narrows down, it curtails. It makes human beings so bound to authority, to some ideas. They have become so dependent, so attached, so inhuman. We are not talking about the many expressions of desire, of fear, but fear itself. We are not talking about the various aspects of fear, but the root of it.
What is the root of fear? Is it not time and thought? That is, I am a clerk, I may never become a manager. I am a disciple, I can never become the guru if I want to be. I am ignorant in the deep sense of the word, deeply ignorant, which is, not knowing. That is ignorance - a movement that has no beginning and perhaps no end, and to understand that deep ignorance I imagine I need time, experience, accumulation, belief in reincarnation, and all the rest of it. So there is fear. We are asking each other what is the root of it all. Why has man, throughout the ages, from timeless beginning, carried this burden of fear? He has not been able to resolve it. He may go to all the temples, to all the churches, to all the gurus, various systems of meditation, but fear is always there. You may be blind to it, you may want to evade it, but it is always there in one form or another.
We are asking, what is the root of it? The root of it is time and thought. I had pain a couple of weeks ago and I fear it might return again, which is time. There is the remembrance of that pain and the fear that it may happen again. My wife has hurt me, as I have hurt her, not physically, but inwardly, and I hope she won't hurt me more by word or a gesture or by a tear. I am afraid she might hurt me, so there is fear. Fear is time and thought. If one understands the nature of time and thought and the movement and the wandering of desire, understand in the sense see the truth of it instantly, not the verbal conclusion of it but the fact of it, the reality of it, the depth of it, the intensity of it, if you do see it so clearly, then you will never ask how is fear to end. Nor can you ask, `How can I control thought', or `How am I to stop thought', which are the causes of fear. You will never ask that question because you cannot ask that question about it. You actually see the truth. It is there. It is there for you to see, not to accept, to argue, analyse, discuss, take sides; you can't. This is like seeing the most beautiful thing on earth, which is there - an excellent sea, an excellent mind which is there, a heart that is always aflame, which is there. If you see it, then fear ends. And where there is the ending of fear, there is no god. It is out of our fear, out of our desire, that we invent the gods. When a man is without fear, then he is a totally different human being and he needs no god. And sirs and ladies, give your heart to consider all this - not your mind, not your intellect. Intellect has its place, but when you are examining something very, very seriously, the head must enter into its consideration. When the heart enters, that is when there is love to observe, love of watching, seeing; then, when you see the truth of desire, time and thought, there is no fear whatsoever. Then only there can be love. Fear and love cannot go together. Fear and pleasure go together, but not love and fear.
J. Krishnamurti Mind Without Measure Talks in Madras 4th Public Talk 2nd January, 1983 `Meditation is the Expression of Daily Activity'
Yesterday evening we talked about fear, the nature of fear and what brings about fear. We said time, desire, thought, are the causes of fear and man has lived with fear. We live with fear now - fear of the past, fear of the future of man, what is going to happen to man. Surely, the future of man is what he is now. If he does not radically change, psychologically, inwardly, the future is what he is now. That is guaranteed because there will be more wars, more instruments of wars, more destruction, more violence, more fragmentation of human beings into nationalities, and so on. The future is what we are now. It is so urgently necessary to bring about the psychological revolution. What does it mean to bring about a change - not move from one form, one system, one idea to another, but is it possible for human beings who have lived on this lovely earth for so many millennia to change?
This evening we ought to talk over together whether sorrow can ever end - the sorrow of man; what is love, what is compassion, what is intelligence, the significance of death, and the whole question of meditation. We have lived with sorrow generation upon generation - the grief, the sorrow of loneliness, the sorrow of great anxiety, the sorrow of having no proper relationship with another, the sorrow of a mother, of a father losing a son, of a wife whose husband has been killed in war. Also there is the sorrow of ignorance. Sorrow has many forms. It is not just one incident called death, it is not just one happening in one's life, but a series of incidents, of accidents and experiences which contain pleasure and pain, the sorrow of this movement of reward and punishment, the sorrow of old age, the sorrow of illness, blindness, of deformed children. Man has carried the great weight of sorrow and tries to escape from it. He invents all kinds of theories, all kinds of possibilities, romantic concepts, but sorrow remains with man. I wonder if one has looked at what wars have done to man - how many women, fathers, brothers, sisters, have shed tears because one holds on to nationalism, racial prejudices, linguistic differences. All this is causing enormous sorrow in the world. There is not only personal sorrow, the loss of something, the loss of someone whom you loved, but the loss of never having a single, happy, original day, the pain of seeing poverty in this land and doing nothing about it. Man has carried this sorrow from time beyond measure. We still are burdened, fearful, anxious, lonely, aching with deep inward pain, the lack of success, lack of opportunity, lack of the things we all want.
Is it possible to end this enormous burden carried by humanity and by those who are still in sorrow? What is sorrow? What is the cause of sorrow? Where there is a cause, there is an end. If I have cancer, the cause, the pain, then perhaps the cause can be removed. So, where there is a cause for anything, there is an end to that. The causation is a movement; it is not a fixed point. If you can understand and discover the cause of this burden of sorrow, then perhaps we can understand the nature of love; not love of god, not the love of the guru, not the love of some book or a poem but the love of human beings - the love of your wife, the husband, your children. To find that extraordinary perfume that is really the light of the world, one must understand the nature of suffering, the structure of suffering.
I hope together we, you and the speaker, are going into this. Together we are investigating, not the speaker investigates and you listen, agree or disagree, accept or deny, but together we are exploring a very, very profound problem of humanity. One requires an unemotional approach to understand sorrow; not sentimentality, not a conclusion that sorrow will end, or that sorrow will always remain with mankind. We must together consider this question deeply. You can only consider this question when the mind is in the heart. We use our intellect to comprehend, to discern, to argue. We use the intellect to choose, to measure. And intellect is one of the faculties of the brain. If we are going to examine this extraordinary, profound, problem, mere intellect has very little place, and most of us are highly intellectual, highly educated, having this extraordinary quality of analysis. You in India can analyse anything on earth. You have got fairly subtle minds, whereas to comprehend sorrow, mere intellect cannot go very far. We are saying that all of us have the capacity to use our intellect, which is to understand, to discern, to argue, to choose, to weigh one against the other. This is the function of the intellect. And most of us having the capacity - if you are merely approaching this question of sorrow that way - then our intellect, our mind, dominates the process of investigation. Therefore it distorts.
Whereas, is it possible to approach it with a holistic movement? We never approach anything as a whole. We never look at life as a whole. We have fragmented life, broken it up as the intellect, the emotions, love, and so on, and so we can never look at a problem wholly. The word `whole' also means healthy - a healthy mind, not a crippled mind, not a stagnant mind, but a mind which is whole, a sense of covering the earth and the skies and the beauty of all that. `Whole' means also `holy'. In investigating, exploring, this question, one needs to have that quality of a mind in the heart which is not romantic, idealistic, imaginative, but a very factual mind, tempered with the quality of love. When we use the word `holy', we mean by that - mind in the heart, mind in the quality of love, which has nothing whatsoever to do with any ideals, with any obedience. There must be freedom to observe. So, together let us look at this question of what is sorrow and why man has put up with sorrow, why he has accepted it as he has accepted fear, as he has accepted pleasure, desire, all the things that man is surrounded with, both outwardly and inwardly.
So, what is sorrow? What is the nature of it? In that thing called sorrow, there is pain, there is grief, there is a sense of isolation, a sense of loneliness in which there is no relationship. It is not only a physical shock but a great crisis in consciousness, in the psyche. I have lost my son; I am only taking that example. I have lost my son to whom I am attached. I want him to grow up into some businessman, have some kind of good substantial income, a house, and so on, and suddenly he has gone. What is that quality of suddenness, something which has given me great joy, great pain, great anxiety, concern about his future? All that movement - my affection, my concern, my care, my sense of helping him to have good taste, to live aesthetically - suddenly ends. Don't you know all these feelings? In every house there is this shadow of sorrow. There is sudden ending of my attachment, sudden ending of all my hope which I have invested in him, sudden in the sense of a deep shock and life becomes empty; either I become very cynical or find a rational explanation or plunge myself into some form of entertainment - drugs, trips and all the rest of it, or believe in some future life. This is the lot of human beings.
What is this ending? What does it mean to end? Have we ever ended something without a motive, without a reward or punishment?
Where there is an ending, there is a totally new beginning. But we never end. We end things if it is profitable or painful. Our life is based on reward and punishment, both outwardly and inwardly, but we never end anything without a cause. So, grief, loneliness, and sense of separation which is essentially time, identification, investment and all the things one has cultivated in another - all that ends and there is a shock and that shock I call sorrow. Now, can one remain with that, not escape, not seek comfort? Can you remain with that tremendous challenge without a single movement of thought, because sorrow is perhaps one of the greatest challenges, greatest demands on the human mind, on the human quality? And if you merely escape from it, run away, rationalize, then sorrow is your shadow, but with the ending of that, there is passion that is the very essence of energy. But very few of us have that passion. which is living, that passion which moves the universe.
So we ought to look into what is love. That word has been so spoilt. We have given to that word such shallow meaning. One may say, I love my wife. One questions that love. That love may be attachment, that love may be seeking comfort, pleasure sexually, the pleasure of companionship, and so on. We are going to consider what is love, to see the depth of it, the beauty and the extraordinary quality of it. Love may be related to death.
Surely, to find something true one must negate that which is not true, negate the false. To discover what is false and what is true and what is true in the false, one requires not only the capacity to think clearly but to demand, ask questions. So what is love? Would you say love is desire? Would you say love is pleasure? Would you say love is attachment? The speaker is asking these questions for you to answer to yourself; answer, not to deceive yourself, which is so easy to do. One may think that one is a marvellous human being, and that one is out of all this. But to find out that which is not love, that is negation, and it is the most positive action. We are asking, is desire love? Desire is a wandering movement, and is love wandering, unstable, weak, or is it something as strong, as vital as death? Is love pleasure, sexual pleasure, the pleasure of owning, dominating, possessing a person? Is that love? Is attachment to the person - my wife, my husband, my family, which means to hold on, cling to - is that love? Or in attachment there is fear, jealousy, anxiety, hate? Where there is jealousy, there is hate. Is that love? Has hate any relationship with love? Is love the opposite of hate? Is the good opposite of that which is not good? If hate is the opposite of love, then hate has its root in love. All opposites have their root in their own opposites. Please examine your own life honestly and ask these questions. Desire, pleasure, attachment, jealousy, anxiety, fear of losing, is all that love? Can you be free of attachment, not at the last moment when death is there? Can you end attachment to another? See the implications of attachment, the consequences of attachment. Where there is jealousy, there is hate, anger. Is all that love?
And what is compassion? - not the definition that you can look up in a dictionary. What is the relationship between love and compassion, or are they the same movement? When we use the word `relationship', it implies a duality, a separation, but we are asking what place has love in compassion, or is love the highest expression of compassion? How can one be compassionate if you belong to any religion, follow any guru, believe in something, believe in your scriptures, and so on, attached to a conclusion? When you accept your guru, you have come to a conclusion, or when you strongly believe in god or in a saviour, this or that, can there be compassion? You may do social work, help the poor out of pity, out of sympathy, out of charity, but is all that love and compassion? In understanding the nature of love, having that quality which is mind in the heart, that is intelligence. Intelligence is the understanding or the discovering of what love is. Intelligence has nothing whatsoever to do with thought, with cleverness, with knowledge. You may be very clever in your studies, in your job, in being able to argue very cleverly, reasonably, but that is not intelligence. Intelligence goes with love and compassion, and you cannot come upon that intelligence as an individual. Compassion is not yours or mine like thought is not yours or mine. When there is intelligence, there is no me and you. And intelligence does not abide in your heart or your mind. That intelligence which is supreme is everywhere. It is that intelligence that moves the earth and the heavens and the stars, because that is compassion.
Also we are going to talk over together this question of death - death being the ending, the ending of our memories, of our attachments, the bank account if you have one. You cannot carry it with you but you would like to have it till the last moment. So, what is death and who is it that dies? And what is life? Do you understand? Who is it that dies, and what does it mean to die? We are not talking of the ending of the physical organism, but we are enquiring into life, the ending of life and the great significance of what death means. What is life which we have separated from death? There is a gap 40, 50 or 100 years. We want to prolong our lives, as long as possible. Modem medicine, surgery, health, and all that helps to prolong one's life. I do not know for what, but one wants to prolong it. So what is life, your life or the life of the universe, life of the earth, life of nature, life which is the vast movement without a beginning and without an end? Don't fall back into the trap of your tradition. That is dead, as dead as a door nail. So we must examine when we talk about living, life, what that means - the life of a tree, the life of the fish in the water, the life of the beauty of a tiger, the life of the universe, this life that seems so extraordinarily vast, immense, measureless. Are we talking about that or your life? If you are talking about your life, what is that life? Going to the office from morning till night for 50, years, having children, belonging to some sect, following some guru? Your life is conflict as pleasure, conflict as fear and the pursuit of pleasure and desire. This is your life. Is that what we are talking about, the ending of that life? What is important - before or after death? Life, the beauty of it, the energy, the pleasure of it, the immensity of it you have reduced to such shallow little `me'. Are you concerned about that, the `me' that is going to die? Is it your name, your form, how you look, your bank account, your ideals, your beliefs, your experiences? So what are you? Please look, question it, doubt it, ask it. Is that what you are frightened of - dying? Knowing that your body, that organism, is going to die? You may prolong it for a long time, but it is going to come to an end. Or you can say, `I have had a jolly good life, I don't mind dying.' We are asking, what is it that dies and what is it that clings to life? By life I mean going to office, sex, pain, pleasure, fighting each other, quarrelling, destroying each other. This is your life, whether you are young or old. Is that what you are afraid of ending? Or are you considering life as a whole, the life of the universe, which is so immense, so vast, so incalculable? Please enquire what you are, to which thought clings, to the image you have built about yourself. It is not the immortality of one's soul, of yourself. Yourself is built through time, your image as `me' from the moment you are born till now. And you accept that `me' as a reality; is it real at all or is it a series of words, series of memories, accidental experiences, which are all put together by thought, and is that `me' holding on to all this travail of life? If you are not holding it then life is something totally different. It is a vast incalculable movement. But that can only be seen when the self is not.
Now we ought to ask a question: what is meditation? We are together going to examine what is meditation, not how to meditate, but what is the nature, the quality, the structure, the beauty of meditation. The word `meditation means to ponder over, to think over, to consider, to probe, to investigate, to look, according to the dictionary. And the word `meditation also means measurement, to measure. I believe in Sanskrit ma is to measure. Measurement means comparison. Have you ever considered how the ancient Greece in 450 B.C. exploded all over Europe? Greece was responsible for measurement; the Greeks invented measurement. Without measurement there can be no technology. And the Western world is capable of great technology, which has moved to Japan. The ancient Indians said that measurement is illusion; India exploded all over Asia. Don't be proud of it, it is all gone. You have lost the one thing that was so precious. You have lost the greatest jewel that you had ever had. So meditation means to think, to ponder, and also it means to measure. That is, I am this, I must be that; I am comparing myself with yourself who are clever, beautiful, lovely, and I am not; that is measurement. Following an example is measurement. Wherever there is comparison psychologically, meditation cannot be. Where there is measurement, comparison, there cannot be meditation. You can compare between two cars, between two materials, better cloth, better paper, better house, better food, but where the mind thinks in terms psychologically of the better, meditation is not possible. You can sit cross-legged, do all kinds of yoga, all kinds of control, but where there is control, there is measurement. Where there is control, there must be conflict and there must be measurement, and that is not meditation.
Meditation is to live a diligent life. Meditation is not separate from daily living; it is not going off into a little corner, meditating for twenty minutes every day or every afternoon, every evening; that is just having a siesta. There is no system. System implies practice. Practice means measurement - from what you are to what you want to be, and you may be practising the wrong note. And probably you are. You call that meditation. That meditation is totally separate from your daily living. Find out whether it is possible to live a daily life of meditation which means no measurement at any time. In meditation, there is no control because the controller is the controlled. In meditation there is no will because will is desire. The essence of desire is will - `I will meditate, I will practise this day after day.' In meditation there is no effort at all because there is no controller. Meditation implies awareness, awareness of the earth, the beauty of the earth, the dead leaf, the dying dog, to be aware of your environment; to be aware of your neighbour; to be aware of the colours you carry, why you wear that colour and those beads, to be aware of that. To be aware of the beauty of the wind among the leaves, to be aware of your thoughts, your feelings, that is, to be aware without choice - just to be aware. That heightens your sensitivity - to observe diligently everything. When you say I will do something, do it, never forgetting what you have said. Do not say something you don't mean. That is part of meditation. That is, to be aware of your feelings, your condition. your opinions, your judgments, and your beliefs so that in that awareness there is no choice - just to be aware of the beauty of the earth, the skies and the lovely waters. When you are so aware, then there is attention; to attend not only to see the speaker but also to what your wife is telling you or your husband is telling you or your children are telling you, what the politicians are telling you - their trickery, their search for power, position. When you so profoundly attend, there is no centre as the `me' to attend. That is also meditation.
Then, if you have gone that far, if the mind has moved that far, then you ask what is religion. Religion is none of these things that you have - the temples and the content of the temples, the puja, the Tirupatis, the churches and all that is not religion. The rituals, the beliefs, they are put together by thought which is a material process and you worship that which thought has created, which is what you have created. Have you ever realized that all the rituals, these gods, you have created them out of your fear, out of your wanting security? I know you don't agree, but listen to it. You will go on doing it because your mind is conditioned, afraid, wants some kind of security, but a religious man does not belong to any group, to any religion, has no belief because his mind is free. Intelligence is the highest, supreme form of ultimate security, not the intelligence of the cunning thought. There is the intelligence of compassion. In that intelligence there is no doubt, no uncertainty, no fear. That intelligence is something immense and universal. And where there is attention, there is silence. If you attend now to what the speaker is saying, attend with your ears, with your eyes, with your nerves, with your whole body, if you so attend, then in that quality of attention there is silence, unfathomable silence. That silence has never been touched by thought, and only then that for which man has searched from time immemorial, something sacred, something nameless, supreme, comes. It is only that mind that is so utterly free from all the travails of life; it is only such a mind that can find the supreme. That means meditation, which is the expression of daily activity.
J. Krishnamurti Mind Without Measure Talks in Bombay 1st Public Talk 22nd January, 1983 `Where there is a Cause, there is an End'
If one may like to point out, this is not a lecture to instruct on a particular subject or with a view to inform, not to instruct and teach, but we, you and the speaker, are searching out the various issues of our daily lives to see if there are any solutions for them. So it is your responsibility as well as that of the speaker to think together, for each of us to discover, find out for ourselves if we are meeting each other; not merely at the intellectual level or emotional, ideational level, but rather meet in a relationship that is enquiring, questioning. To question, enquire, one must be free of prejudices. Otherwise, enquiry has no value at all. Most of you are already committed to so many ideals, conclusions, opinions, and so we never meet. As the speaker has no beliefs, has no ideals, has no authority whatsoever, he can investigate easily, freely, happily, but if you also were free, you can also enquire, look into the vast conflicts of our society, of our governments, why human beings who have lived on this earth for perhaps forty, fifty thousand years or more have become what they are - dull, violent, superstitious. We are the society, we have created this society in which we live, and to bring about order in that society, our own house must be in order, which it is not. Our house, the house in which we live, is not the physical house, but it is the house of our struggle, conflict, misery, confusion, sorrow. That is our house, and we don't bring about order in that. Mere demand for outward order has little meaning.
What we are concerned with deeply is why human beings are what they are, why they have become like this. The future is what they are now. If they don't change now, the future will be exactly what it is now, perhaps with certain modification, variation. If human beings don't radically, fundamentally, bring about a change in their own attitudes, in their own lives, which is to put order, then attending all these talks has very little meaning. If that is very clear, then we are together meeting at a certain level with the same intensity, at the same time; then communication becomes very simple. Because, obviously the speaker is here to say something, to explore something with you. If you hold on to your commitments, to your beliefs, to your gurus and all that, we can never meet each other. So, please, this is a talk or a conversation between two people, a dialogue of two friends who are concerned not only with their own private life but concerned with the world, concerned with what is happening in the world - the global disorder, the threat of wars, poverty, the violence and the destruction that is going on right through the world. We are responsible for all that.
What is the problem? Why have we, throughout our life, problems - from the beginning, when we see the light, till we die? Why do we have problems - social problems, economic problems, mechanical problems, computer problems and our own problems in our daily life, in our relationship? Is it necessary to have problems? Is it possible to live without a single problem? If you have problems, obviously those problems act as friction and wear out the brain, and one gets old and so on. Human beings throughout the world have many, many problems. They live in problems. Their whole life is a movement of problems. Now we are asking: is it possible not to have problems? We are going to investigate the question, not say, `yes, it is possible to live without problems; that is not the point. The point is why do we have it, what is a problem, why the brain is always trying to solve problems. There are mechanical problems, mathematical problems, problems of design, problems in architecture, physics. In the technological field, there are many, many problems. That is inevitable. But why do we, in our life, in our relationship, in our own way of living, in our family, have problems? We see that in the technological world problems must exist. We live in a mechanical world. We are business people: we are doctors, surgeons, physicists, biologists, trained computer experts. And our brain is trained, educated, conditioned, to solve problems. We extend that same attitude to our daily life. Do you understand what I am saying? Suppose one is a computer expert. He has several problems there, and mechanically he has to solve those problems, which means his brain is trained, conditioned, educated, to solve problems. And we extend that same movement of solution of problems to the psychological field.
The psychological field is the field of our relationship, our fears, anxiety, all the rest of it. We have got the same mentality that these have to be solved: these are problems that have to be solved, which means we look at life, at our daily living, from the point of view of our problems. You are trained or educated to solve problems.
We try to solve one problem. In the solution of that one problem we add more problems. So we live with problems. We are saying something totally different, which is, to observe life not with a mind that is trained to solve problems, but to understand why the brain is conditioned, trained, educated, to solve problems, and why with that same movement we meet life.
Now, we are going to look at the various issues of our life not with a brain that is trained to solve problems, but to observe the issues, not demanding an answer, not demanding a solution, because to live a life without a single problem is the most extraordinary life. It has immense capacity. It has tremendous energy. It is always renewing itself, but if you are always caught in the field of problems and the resolution of those problems, then you never move out of those problems. Is this clear? We are going to find out whether it is possible to look at any issue and not call it a problem, to look at any issue of our daily life and not label it as a problem but only to observe it, to be aware of the whole nature of that issue, the content of that issue; but if you approach it as a problem and therefore try to find an answer to it, you will increase the problem. Say, for example, it is important to have an unoccupied mind. It is only a brain that is unoccupied that can perceive something new, that is free, that has tremendous vitality. It is necessary to have a very quiet mind because it is only a quiet mind, unoccupied mind, a brain that can see things clearly, that can actually think totally differently. Now, you hear that it is necessary to have a quiet, still mind, then you ask, `how am I to get it?' Then you make a problem of it - `I need a quiet mind. My mind is occupied, restless, chattering all the time and how am I to stop it?' The desire to stop it brings about problems. How am I to do it is a problem. Have you understood this? But if you approach the question of that unoccupied mind without the how, then you will begin to see for yourself the nature of occupation, why it is occupied, why it is constantly dwelling on a particular thing. When you observe it, when you are aware of it, it is telling you the story. Do you understand this?
First, we must be very clear that you and the speaker are treating life not as a problem but as a tremendous movement. If your brain is trained to solve problems, then you will treat this movement as a problem to be solved. Is it possible to look at life with all its questions, with all its issues, which is tremendously complex, to look at it not as a problem, but to observe it clearly, without bias, without coming to some conclusion which will then dictate your observation? You have to observe this vast movement of life, not only your own particular life, but the life of humanity, the life of the earth, the life of the trees, the life of the whole world - look at it, observe it, move with it, but if you treat it as a problem, then you will create more problems. Is this clear?
What is our first issue in life, what is the first movement in our life, in the life of man? We are not talking about the petty little life which you lead, which we will come to presently, but the life that is around us, the vast, immense, complex movement of existence. What is it that strikes you first? What is it that has meaning, that has depth, that has a sense of vitality behind it? What would be your first observation, your first response, your first immediate enquiry? Perhaps you never ask this question. If you look at this vast extraordinary movement of life of which one is a part, what is the thing that you meet first? Would it be relationship, would it be your own particular concern about yourself, would it be your own fear, your own anxiety, your own particular, narrow, limited enquiry, your own search for god? What would be your first natural contact, natural demand? Don't we look at this vast movement of life from a narrow little window, that window being your own little self - your own worries, your own anxieties, your own sexual demands? Are you looking at this vast movement from no particular point of view, from no window, from no commitment, or are you so caught in a system, in a tradition, in knowing as a professor, as a philosopher, as a writer, as a soldier or as a specialist? Or do you look at it as a human being, the human being with so many questions, sorrows, pains, anxieties? How do you look at all this?
When you put such a question among so many people, naturally each one has a different response. But as we are all human beings, we are the rest of mankind. We may have a certain background, certain tradition, certain long history. But primarily you are a human being, not a Christian, not a doctor, not a Buddhist, not a Hindu; you are primarily a human being related to all other human beings. Therefore, you are the rest of humanity. Your body may be different from another body, the physical organism may be different from other physical organism, but the body never says `I am', the body never says `I am something special; the body never says `my progress, my success, I must seek God', and all that. The body is never conscious that it is separate from somebody else. It is thought that says I am different. It is important to see how thought divides. So, that is the first thing that you notice when you look at this vast movement of life, how man has divided himself from another, separated himself from another, calling himself an American, a Jew, a Russian, an Arab, a Hindu, and all the rest of it. Don't you observe this extraordinary broken up human entity? Are you aware of that? In that, the first thing you see is how the world is divided geographically, nationally, racially, religiously. This division is causing immense conflict, this division is causing wars - the Hindu against the Muslim. the Russian against the Afghan, and so on. Isn't that the first thing you see in this world - how man has created this division? This division must exist because thought has created this division.
Sir, if you are at all alert, aware, one sees what man has done to himself and what he has done to others. That is the first thing one observes - the destruction of this division, the breeding of wars through nationalism. One of the causes of war is nationalism, and one never treats this vast movement of life as one unit. We have lived that way for thousands of years, killing each other in the name of god, in the name of peace, in the name of the country, in the name of a flag, and we are still doing this after thousands of years. So one asks, what is wrong with man? Why is he doing this? He is extraordinarily clever in the technological world; he has invented the most extraordinary delicate instruments. But we are still carrying on most stupidly our own lives. So that is the first thing you notice. And one asks what is the cause of it.
What is the cause of all this - this division, these wars, the structure of hierarchical authority in every country, in the religious world, in the political world, in the scientific world? It is all based on hierarchical principles - the authority of knowledge, authority of experience, and so on. Now, what is the cause of all this? Who is responsible? Please enquire. Because, where there is a cause, there is an end to that cause. If one has pain, the cause being cancer or what you will, then that pain can be ended or you are killed. So, wherever there is a cause, there is an end to that. That is a law, that is a principle. So we are asking: what is the cause of all this - this vast misery, unhappiness, the tremendous uncertainty?
May we go into it together, not that I explain, you accept, but together, slowly, carefully, find out for ourselves what is the root of all this, what is the cause of all this? If we don't find it now, the future will be exactly the same, what you are now - wars, division, sorrow, pain, anxiety, uncertainty. So together let us find out what is the cause of this division. This division breeds wars, quarrels, perpetual conflict - conflict between man and woman, sexually, and so on. What is the root of all this, the cause of all this? If I may ask, how do you approach a question like that? How do you come near to it? Approach means to come near, to come into contact. This is a question put to you and are you looking at it as a problem to be resolved, or do you come even close to it? If you do, you are then open to the question, but if you keep away from the question, you are not open, you are not alive to the question.
So we are together approaching this question with no direction, with no motive, because if there is a motive, then that motive dictates the answer, it distorts the perception. Suppose this is my question; I am putting this question to myself: `What is the root of all this?' I have no answer. I don't know, but I am going to find out. But to find out, I must be free, absolutely free from any kind of direction. Because, if I have a direction, a motive, hoping for some kind of reward, then that motive, that reward, is going to dictate my investigation. So one must be free to observe this question - what is the root of all this? Is it inevitable for every human being living on this beautiful earth that he must live in conflict, that he must live with anxiety, fear? If you accept that as inevitable, then there is no investigation. You have come to a conclusion and you have shut the door. Conclusion means the ending of investigation. The very word `conclusion' is to close, to end. If you come to any conclusion, then you cannot possibly answer. So one must be aware of how you approach this question. We are asking: is it thought? What is thought? Is thought yours. Is thought individual? Is your thinking separate from somebody else's thinking? Every person thinks - the most stupid, ignorant, downtrodden man in a village to the great scientist. So thinking is common to all of us. It is not your thinking separate from my thinking. But thinking is the movement of all mankind; it is not individual thinking. Do we see that? It is rather difficult to accept it or see it because we are so conditioned, we are so educated, so trained to think that my thinking is separate from yours, my opinion is different from yours. But opinion is opinion; it is not your opinion or my opinion.
So, is thinking the root of all this misery, this destruction, this decline, this corruption, this decay? If it is, then can that movement of thought which has created such havoc in the world, end? It is thinking which has created the most extraordinary technological world, great instruments of war, extraordinary submarines, and so on. Also it has created all the religions in the world. It has built extraordinary cathedrals, mosques, temples and all the things that are in the temples, in the mosques, in the churches. Thought has invented all the rituals, invented the saviour in the Christian world, invented liberation or moksha or whatever you like to call it in this country. Also it has invented gods. The more you are uncertain, the more dangerous the world becomes. So thought must find a security, the sense of safety, certainty. And it creates gods - your god and my god, my god is better than your god, my guru is better than yours, and so on. Thought has been responsible for all this, If that is the cause, if thought is the cause of all this - our misery, our superstitions, our immense insecurity, uncertainty, and also thought has created the most extraordinary things - communications, surgery, medicines and so on, is there an end to it? You understand my question? Is there an end to thought? That is, if thought is responsible for all this technological world and the human world of misery, unhappiness, anxiety, if thought is the cause of all this, it must have an end. That is, if one has a certain disease brought about by various incidents, that disease has a cause, and that having been discovered, it can be treated and ended. Similarly, if thought is responsible for all this, for our daily confusion, misery, uncertainty, sorrow, and all these superstitions that thought has created around us, if thought is the cause, it has an end.
If you say, tell me how to end thought, then you make a problem of it because your brain is trained, educated, to solve problems. As an expert in computers is trained to solve problems there, that same movement is extended into the psychological world. If thought is the cause of this, the question is not how to end it, but to understand the whole movement of thought. If you treat it as your thinking, and somebody else treats it as his thinking, then the issues are totally different. That leads to all kinds of illusion. Superstitions have no reality, but thinking is the ground upon which all human beings - the black, the white, the pink, the Muslim, the Hindu, the villager, the uneducated - stand. Then you move away from the idea that it is my thinking; you are then concerned with global thinking, not the Indian way of thinking. You are concerned really with the world, with all humanity, of which you are. You are not an individual. Individual means unique, undivided. You are not unique, you are totally divided, fragmented in yourself, you are the result of all the past generations. Your brain is not yours. It is evolved through thousands and thousands of years. But your religion, your scriptures, your everyday life, says you are separate from everybody else, and you are trained to accept it. You have never gone into it, you have never questioned it, doubted it, but you accept, and in that acceptance lies your problems. But if you look at it all as a vast movement of life of which you are a part, this movement that is limitless, that has no beginning and no end, then you begin to enquire into the nature of thought.
Now, what is the origin of thought? Why is thought divided in its very nature, the very movement of thinking in itself, why is it divisive, fragmentary, limited? Since thought is perhaps the cause, don't ask, `Please tell me how to end the cause; then you are back into your old field of problems. If you try to solve this problem, you have other problems. Thought is creating problems. So you say, tell me how to stop them, how to stop thinking, and there are lots of people who will tell you how to stop thinking. And those people vary from each other - meditate, don't meditate, try this way, you know all that. So we multiply problems after problems. But look at this movement of thought with which man has lived for thousands upon thousands of years, and ask not how to end thought, but what is the nature of it, why has thought become so important. Because, thought implies knowledge. Ask what place has knowledge in life. We must stop now, we will continue tomorrow evening. But please, when you leave here, look at it, find out; that means an active brain, brain that is active, thinking, discussing, not just stuck in a narrow little groove of tradition of some system. One of the calamities in the world is that we are all getting old, not merely old in the body, but old mentally. Decay begins there inside first because we become mechanical. We never have the energy, vitality, passion, to find out. We have all been told what to do, we have all been instructed. This is not a place of instruction nor are you being told what to do. Here we are serious to find out a different way of living, and you can only find that out when you understand the nature of thought and the way of living in which thought is not important at all.
J. Krishnamurti Mind Without Measure Talks in Bombay 2nd Public Talk 23rd January, 1983 `The Good Mind'
May we continue with what we were talking about yesterday evening? We said the present condition of racial divisions, linguistic divisions, religious divisions, national divisions as Muslim and the Hindu, the Jew and the Arab, the American and the European, the Russian, the Chinese, and so on has brought about a great many wars. Where there is division there must be conflict, not only division between man and woman in their relationship, but also division as racial, religious and linguistic. Also we went into the question of why does this constant conflict between man and man exist, what is the root of it, what is the cause of all this chaos, anarchy, near anarchy, bad governments, each nation preparing for wars, one guru more important than the other, and so on. We are seeing this division throughout the world, and also historically it has existed for many, many centuries. What is the cause of it? Who is responsible for it? We said thought has divided man against man; thought has also created the most extraordinary architecture, painting, poetry and the whole world of technology, medicine, surgery, communications, computers, robots, and so on. Thought has brought about health, good medicine and various forms of human comfort. But thought also has created this vast division between man and man, and we ask what is the cause of all this, Who is responsible for all this? And we said, where there is a cause, there is an end. When you have a certain disease, the cause can be found of that disease, and the disease can be cured. So wherever there is a cause, there is an end to that cause. That is obviously a fact. If thought has created this confusion, this uncertainty, this perpetual danger, then what will happen if thought is not used?
We are together investigating, asking why man throughout the world lives and perpetuates conflict not only within himself but outwardly - in society, in religion, in the economy, and so on. That thought is responsible for the mess, for the division, for all the misery of human beings, is fairly obvious. If one recognizes that fact, not as a theory or philosophical statement but the actual fact of it, that thought, however clever, however crafty, however erudite, is responsible for this mess, then what is man to do? That is where we left off yesterday. We said also that thought has created marvellous cathedrals, temples and mosques, and all the things that are in the temples, mosques and churches are the invention of thought. Thought has created god because thought seeks to find security. Finding uncertainty, insecurity, conflict, in this world, thought invents an entity, a principle, an ideal which gives it security, comfort; but that comfort, that security, is the invention of thought. It is very obvious, if you observe your own thinking, that thought has created this division and this conflict. Then we can ask a question: why does this conflict exist, why have we lived with conflict from immemorial times - conflict between the good and the bad, between `what is' and `what should be', the actual and the ideal?
Why does man live in conflict? What is conflict? What is the nature of conflict? I do not know if some of you have seen those caves in the south of France where, 25, 30 thousand years ago, there is a picture of man fighting evil in the form of a bull, and so on. For thousands of years we have lived with conflict. To meditate, it becomes a conflict. Does conflict exist where there is comparison? Comparison means measurement. One compares oneself with another. Where there is comparison, there must be fear, there must be conflict. Can one live without comparison at all? We think that by comparing ourselves with somebody we are progressing. You want to be like your guru, you want to achieve enlightenment, position, you want a follower, you want to be respected, and so on. So, where there is a becoming psychologically, there must be conflict. Is it possible to live a life without any comparison and therefore without any conflict? We are questioning the whole process of psychological becoming. A child becomes an adult, then grows into manhood. To learn a language we need time, to acquire any skill we need time. We are asking, is becoming psychologically one of the reasons of conflict - the `what is' to be changed into `what should be' - `I am not good but I will be good, I am greedy, envious, but perhaps one day I will be free of all this.' Desire to become, which is measurement, which is comparison, is that one of the causes of conflict?
There is another reason for conflict - which is, there is duality. We are examining something to understand the nature of conflict and to find out for ourselves if it is possible to be totally, completely, free of conflict. Conflict wears out the brain, makes the mind old. A man who has lived without conflict is an extraordinary human being. It is important to realize the necessity of understanding conflict. We see that measurement, comparison, brings about conflict. Also we have stated that there is duality. Some of your philosophers have stated that, posited that there is duality and that one of the reasons of this conflict is this duality. There is duality - night and morning, light and shade, tall and short, bright and dull morning, sun rising and sun setting. Physically there is duality: you are a woman and another is a man. But we are asking, is there psychological duality at all? Or is there only `what is'? I am violent, that is, there is only violence, not non-violence. The non-violence is just an idea. It is not a fact. Where there is violence and non-violence, there must be conflict. In this country, you are talking endlessly about non-violence, but probably you are also very violent people. The fact is, human beings throughout the world are violent. That is a fact. Violence means not only physical violence but also imitation, conformity, obedience, acceptance.
There are other forms of violence, but there is only `what is'. But if you are conditioned to pursue non-violence while you are violent, that is, to move away from the fact, then you must have conflict. Whereas, if one dealt with `what is', there is only one fact - that is I am violent, and in the understanding of the nature and structure of violence there may be the ending of violence, but the ending of violence is not a problem. Our minds are trained, educated, to solve problems - mathematical problems, economic problems, political problems, and so on. Our brains are conditioned to deal mechanically with problems. And we make of life a series of endless problems psychologically. We went into that yesterday. So there is only fact, not the opposite. Is this very clear - that the ideal, the principle, that which you call the noble, are all illusions? What is fact is, we are violent, ignorant, corrupt, uncertain, and so on. Those are facts and we have to deal with facts. Facts don't create problems if you face them. I discover that I am violent, and I have no opposite to it. I reject totally the opposite, it has no meaning. There is only fact.
Now, how do I deal with fact? How do I approach fact? How do I look at that fact? What is my motive in looking at the fact? What is the direction in which I want the fact to move? I must be aware of the nature and structure of the fact, I must be aware of the fact without choice. How does one deal with fact? That is, how do I observe the fact that I am violent? That violence is shown when I am angry, when I am jealous. If I am trying to compare myself with another, if I am doing all that, then it is impossible to face facts. A good mind faces facts. If you are in business, you face facts and deal with the fact, change the fact; you don't pretend that you will do something else away from the fact. Then you are not a good businessman. But here we are so ineffectual because we don't deal with facts. Psychologically, inwardly, we avoid them. We escape from them, or when we do discover them, we suppress them. So there is no resolution of any of them. From that, we ask something else, which is: What is a good mind? Is a mind good when it is full of knowledge?
What is knowledge? We are all very proud of having knowledge, scholastic knowledge through experience, knowledge through incidents, accidents. Accumulated memory is knowledge. An experience can never be complete. Is a good mind a free, comprehensive, global, mind, or is a good mind parochial, narrow, nationalistic, traditional? A good mind is a free mind. It is not a contemporary mind. A good mind is not of time, a good mind is not concerned with time, with environment. It can deal with environment, it can deal with time, but in itself, it is totally free. Such a mind has no fear. Whereas, our minds have been so educated, so trained, that we are not original. There is no depth; knowledge is always superficial. We are concerned with the understanding of the human being, his mind, his action, his behaviour; his responses are limited because his senses are limited. Is it possible for him to be completely, wholly, free? One must have a good mind, not just accumulation of words, which does not mean a clever mind, crafty mind. We are very cunning, crafty, subtle, but that is not a good mind. So, is it possible for us, living in this modem world with all the activities that happen, the influences and newspapers and constant repetition, with our minds being programmed like a computer, as a Hindu, Sikh, and so on, to be strong, healthy, active, full of alertness? Such a mind is necessary. Only then is it possible to bring about a psychological revolution and so a new society, a new culture.
I hope you are listening. It is important to know the art of listening: it is to listen, to see the truth of it and act. For us, we see something to be true, we understand logically, reasonably, very clearly, but we don't act. There is an interval between perception and action. Between the perception and action all other incidents take place. Therefore you will never act. If you see that violence in you is a fact and not try to become non-violent, which is non-fact, but if you perceive the nature of violence, the complexity of violence and listen to your own violence, it will reveal the nature of itself. Then there is the end of violence, completely.
As we said earlier, a chattering mind is an unhealthy mind. It perpetually talks, not only about business problems, mathematical problems, and so on, but problems of one's relationship with husband, wife, children, with the neighbour. It is perpetually occupied, and such occupation will inevitably wear down, weigh down, the capacity of the brain. It is obvious. Is it possible not to chatter? When we realize this chattering and ask the question is it possible to stop it, then we make a problem of it. Our brains are trained to solve problems. So we solve it by saying I must not chatter, and I must try to control, and then the problem arises: Who is the controller? Is the controller different from the controlled? When a problem arises, you are ready to solve it, and brains like ours are trained to solve problems. In solving one problem, other problems increase. So, see a fact that you are violent and make the story of violence read itself; and it will, if your mind is quiet. But don't make a problem of it - `How is the brain to be quiet?' Is it possible to look, to observe, without any choice, to look at your greed, envy, ambitions, your arrogance? Have you not noticed how many people are arrogant? Not the politician, that is understood; he wants power, position, prestige. Where there is power, there is evil. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Now, are you arrogant? The man who is trying to become something psychologically is arrogant. A person is arrogant when he tries to become something which he is not. The becoming is the movement of arrogance. Sirs, look at it. It denies totally the sense of humility. When you are facing facts, then you have to be totally humble, not cultivate humility. Only the vain cultivate humility. When they are vain, arrogant, they may cultivate humility, but their humility is still arrogance. We are all treading the same path of becoming and therefore being utterly dishonest, pretending to be what we are not. Whereas, a good mind faces the fact, the fact that you are violent; arrogant. Nobody has to tell me that you are arrogant, it is so obvious. The way you talk, the way you behave, if one is at all awake, one sees the nature of arrogance. To see it, to comprehend it and to hold it, not try to escape from it, is to solve it.
When there is perception of that which is, that is arrogance, that very perception demands immediate action. That is intelligence. If I see something dangerous - and violence is tremendous danger for a healthy, sane, rational, passionate mind - and if there is the perception of that, that very perception demands immediate action. That is the ending of it. Perception doesn't demand analysis. Perception is something actual, understanding it, looking at it, ending it, and then from there you can reason. That very reasoning will be logical. But if you begin with logic, reason, find out the cause, then you will take time and the cause will multiply.
So, is it possible to live a life without a single problem? We are not talking of mathematical problems and so on, but problems of relationship. To have no problems in relationship - is that possible? You have problems with your wife, with your father, with your mother, with your children. Why? If the daily living is not in order, you can meditate till you are blue in the face, that meditation has no meaning. It is merely an escape; you might just as well take a drug and enjoy yourself. If you don't put your house in order, which is your relationship, if that house is not in order, then your society will not be in order. You must begin near to go very far. The near is your relationship. Why are problems there? Why do you have problems with your wife, with your husband, with your children, with your neighbour, with your government, with your community and all the rest of it, which is, what is relationship? Life is a movement in relationship. There is no escape from that. You may become a hermit, take vows, put on strange garbs and all the rest of it, thinking yourself extraordinary, exceptional, but you are related. To understand relationship is the most important thing in life; not god, not all these scriptures, but to understand the depth, the meaning, the beauty, the quality, of relationship.
Now, are you being drowned by a lot of words or do you catch instantly the depth, the beauty, the quality of relationship without more explanation, more analysis, see the extraordinary importance of relationship? Do you see the beauty of relationship? Where there is no relationship, there is disorder. So let us look at it together in order to arrive at or listen to something serious. You know most of us have homes, have houses, flats, and we own them and possess them. It is our home. We never realize that we are also guests in that house. Do you understand the meaning of that? You can be a guest in a house, in your own house. Do you understand what it means? That means one must be a teacher as well as a disciple. There is no teacher outside of you. You are the teacher and also you are the disciple who is learning from the teacher, not from the teacher as a guru. But you are learning and teaching. You are the owner of your house and also you are the guest of your house. That means you look after the house, you care for the house, you care for whoever is in the house because you are a guest. The speaker has travelled all over the world for the last sixty years, and wherever he is, he is a guest. That means he is always adjusting himself like a river with great volume of water behind it, and every boulder, every rock, it goes round it. The guest is like that. Let us get back.
Relationship is one of the most important things in life. Why have we made it such a confusion and such misery? What is relationship? The word implies being in contact, not only physical contact, not sexual contact - that you all know - but to be in contact mentally, emotionally, inwardly, with another so that there is no division in that contact. That is relationship. But we have not got that contact. You are ambitious and your wife also is ambitious. You want this and she wants something else. She may be right and you may be wrong. She wants to live in a marvellous house and you say `Please, for god's sake; she wants to be popular and you don't care. You are a scholar, a professor in your own little groove, and she has also her own little groove. So you are never in contact with each other except sexually. This is a fact. And you call that relationship. You have an image about her or she has an image about you. Where does love come into all this? Do you understand my question? When one says to one's wife, I love you, what does it mean? I don't know whether you say it at all. I doubt it. But if you do say it, what does it mean to love another? Relationship means to love another. What does that word mean? I love this or I love that, I love god, I love my guru. What does that love mean? Is it based on reward and punishment? Look at it sirs, because we are always caught between the two - reward and punishment. I follow the guru because he is going to promise me heaven, give me comfort. We are caught in this. Is relationship a reward and punishment process? Is love a movement of that? Think it out.
To meet your wife or your husband, your children, your neighbour, at the same time, at the same level, with the same intensity, that is love. Do you understand this? To meet somebody, you must meet him at the same time, at the same level, with the same intensity.
Then that is relationship, but if you are ambitious, you follow the path, becoming noble, ignoble and all the rest of it, and she also follows another path. Naturally you may be married, you may have children and all the rest of it, but you never meet. That breeds a sense of desperate loneliness. Don't you know all this? I have no relationship with anyone - with my wife, with my boss, with my foreman - I have no relationship at all with anybody, because I am self-centred. So that self-centredness and the lack of relationship brings about great loneliness. Discovering that loneliness, we then make out of that loneliness a problem - what am I to do when I am lonely? Your brain is ready to solve the problem. But you never rest with the loneliness, you never enquire the cause of it.
Where there is love, there is no loneliness. Where there is love in your heart, there is no problem. Having stated that, don't make it into a problem. Look at the fact. The fact is that we are not sensitive, that we don't have the depth of beauty. The fact is that we don't love; we don't look at it, try to remain with it, to see `that is so', not try to rationalize it. It is so, that I don't love my wife; you know what it means to say that to yourself. You should cry. I want to cry for you all. Sirs, it is like two parallel lines never meeting and therefore increasing conflict day after day till you die. See the fact that there is no love in your heart, to have the mind in your heart. We think love can be achieved, cultivated. Love is not something to cultivate. Either there is or there is not. If there is not, look at it, hold it, realize what you are without love in your heart; it then becomes a machine - insensitive, vulgar, coarse, only concerned with sex and pleasure. Sirs, please, I am not harassing you, I am not scolding you. I am just pointing out what is happening. Your knowledge, your books, have destroyed you because love is not found in the books. It does not lie with knowledge. Knowledge and love don't go together. Then you say: `I know my wife', but that is your knowledge which is your image about her. That knowledge is put together by thought, and thought is not love. So, having stated all this, do you have love in your heart or is it something romantic, nonsensical, impractical, valueless? It does not give you any money; that is so. Having heard all this, is there a comprehension of the depth of that word so that your mind is in the heart? Then you have right relationship. When you have right relationship, which means love, you can never go wrong.
J. Krishnamurti Mind Without Measure Talks in Bombay 3rd Public Talk 29th January, 1983 `Is there a Psychological Evolution'
We must together perceive for ourselves what is truth and what is false; not to be told what is false or what is true, what is ignorance and what is knowledge, but to find for ourselves a quiet corner in ourselves, living in this dreadful city, living in small spaces, working all day long, commuting, going to great distances in crowded trains and buses. We must find for ourselves a quiet corner, not in a house or in a garden or an empty lane but deep within ourselves, and from there act, live, and find out for ourselves what is beauty, what is time, the nature and the movement of fear, the pursuit of pleasure and the ending of sorrow. We must have such a corner, not in the mind but in the heart, because then, where there is affection and love, intellect, understanding, comes clarity, and from that there is action. But most of us live such strenuous, conflicting, lives with much pressure around us. If we don't find for ourselves some inward space, a space not created by thought, a space uncontaminated, clear, in which there is a light which is not lit by another, a light to ourselves so that we are totally free, we are not free human beings. We think we are free. We think we are free because we can choose, because we can do what we want, but freedom is something entirely different from the desire to do what we want. So we must together find for ourselves without guidance, without help, without any outside agency telling us what to do, how to behave, what is right action, and find in ourselves a space that has no ending and no beginning.
First of all, what is beauty? You may ask, what has that to do with our daily life? Our daily life is rather ugly, self-centred; our daily life is a conflict, pain, anxiety, and that sense of desperate loneliness. That is our daily life. To understand that, one must have a great sense of perception, seeing actually what is going on. One of the factors of our life is time. We are going to find out what is time, what part time plays in our life; and whether time which is the process of division, time which is a beginning and an ending, time which is becoming, whether that time - apart from chronological time, apart from the time of sun rising, sun setting, the beauty of the full moon and the slip of new moon - as a path includes or excludes beauty. This is important for us to understand because we have lost all sense of an aesthetic way of living. We have lost the sense of natural beauty, not the beauty of the face only or the good taste in clothes, and so on, but the quality of beauty. Beauty cannot exist without life. Beauty is not of time. Creation is not of time.
So, time is a great factor in our life. There is time by the watch, the chronological time and the time to learn a language, a skill, a time to achieve in this world - become from a clerk to the executive person, and so on. There is time in that direction. Is there time psychologically, that is, inwardly? Is there time which means a progress from here to there, in the sense of becoming more noble, more free of greed, anger, violence? Time is evolution. From the seed to a tree, from a baby to manhood, the growth, the becoming, all that implies time. Time has evolution. Now we are going to question together whether there is psychological evolution at all. This is important because time and thought are the root of fear. Fear cannot end or fade away or dissipate if you don't understand the nature of time and the nature of thought which are the roots of all fear. We are examining together the nature of time. There is physical time, the new moon becoming the full moon, the seed growing into a great gigantic tree. Time is necessary to learn a language, a skill; time is necessary to accumulate knowledge. You may learn a language within a week or six months. To go from here to your house takes time; from one point to another. All physical movement, physical activity, learning, requires time. The psyche, that is, the bundle of all your thinking, of all your feelings, of all your conclusions, beliefs, gods, hope, fear, all that is a bundle, that is your consciousness, that is what you are. That is what your consciousness is. Your consciousness is made of all these things - your gods, your knowledge, your faith, your hope, your fears, your pleasures, your conclusions, your loneliness and the great fear of sorrow, pain. We are asking whether that consciousness has evolution at all.
Evolution means becoming, that is, I am greedy, envious, violent. Can greed evolve into non-greed? Or anger, loneliness, become gradually something else? All our tradition, all our religious training, our belief, our faith, and all the so-called sacred literature tell you that you will become something. If you make an effort, if you strive after, if you meditate, you will move from this to that, from `what you are' to `what you should be'. That is evolution. Now the speaker is denying all that. The speaker is saying greed can never become better greed. There is only the ending of something, not becoming something. Most of you probably believe in reincarnation. Why do you believe in it? That is, from this life to next life, where you have better opportunities, where you will be a little bit nobler, where you have a little more comfort, more enlightenment; that is, from `what you are' to become `what you should be'. That is called evolution. The speaker is questioning that. He says there is no such thing as psychological evolution. You have to understand the nature of that statement, what is implied - that there is no movement as the evolution of the psyche which means there is no becoming. I don't become noble, I don't achieve enlightenment if I practise, if I strive, if I deny this or control, and so on, which is gradation in achievement. So one has to understand the nature of time; time, as we said, essentially means to divide, break; time implies a beginning and an ending.
So we are going to talk over together the nature of fear; whether fear can end now or it must end gradually. We are used to the idea that gradually we will be rid of fear, which is, `I am afraid, but give me time, I will get over it.' Can fear disappear through time or is the very time itself the root of fear? What is the root of fear? What is fear? You all know what fear is - fear of not becoming, not achieving, fear of the dark, fear of authority, fear of your wife or husband; fear has many, many aspects. We are not concerned with the many facets of fear or with the wiping away of one or two fears. It is like cutting the branches of a tree, but if you want to destroy the tree, you must uproot the tree, go to the very root of it. So look at that fear. What is fear - fear of an accident, fear of disease, and ultimate fear which is of death or the fear of living? Fear is much too deep to surrender it or to dispel it or to control it or to suppress it. One must enquire into the root of it. What is the root of fear? Is it not time, is it not remembrance, is it not an experience which you have had which was painful and the fear of it recurring again, fear of disease - are not all these the symptoms? We are not dealing with symptoms. We are concerned whether it is possible to uproot totally all fear. If that is clear, then we are concerned not with a particular fear, not your own special neurotic fear but with the nature, the structure, the cause of fear, because where there is a cause, there is an end. So we are together going to find out the cause.
One of the causes of fear is time. That is, the future, fear of what might happen, fear of the past which is time, which is a remembrance, which is thought. We are asking: are time and thought the root of fear are they the cause of fear? I am afraid of what might happen, that is, the future. Or I am afraid of something that has happened in the past that might happen again, that is, the past invading the present, modifying itself and going on. So time is one of the factors of fear. Now, I am asking whether thought is also a factor of fear, and if there is a difference between time and thought. Time is division as yesterday, today and tomorrow, the remembrance of the past projecting into the future, and we are afraid of that which might happen. Now, is thought one of the causes or the cause of fear? So what is thought? What is thinking? The most ignorant who does not know how to read or write, who lives in a small village, poverty-ridden, unhappy, he thinks too as you think, as the scientist thinks. Thinking is shared by all. It is not your thinking, it is not individual thinking. We are asking: is thought one of the factors of fear? We are investigating what is thinking. Thinking is shared by all humanity, whether the most educated, sophisticated, rich, powerful, and all the rest of it, or by the most simple, ignorant, half-starving person. It is common to all. Therefore it is not your thinking. You may express your thinking differently and I may express it in different words, but the fact is that we both think, and thinking is not yours or mine. It is thinking.
So what is thinking? Why has it become so extraordinarily important in your life? Please understand this. Give your mind to this. Because love and thinking cannot go together. Compassion is not the product of thought. Love cannot exist in the shadow of thought. Love is not remembrance. Please give your heart and mind to the understanding of this - that thinking is common to all of us. It is not individual thinking. You may express it and another may express it differently, most scholastically, and another may not, but thinking is shared by all. So what is thinking? When that question is put to you, you begin to think, don't you? Or do you listen to the question? If you listen to the question, which is, your mind is not interfering with your conclusions, with your ideas, and so on, if you are listening with all your attention, which means with all your senses totally awakened, then you will see for yourself what is the origin of thinking. The origin of thinking is experience. Experience gives knowledge, whether it is scientific knowledge or the knowledge about wife or husband.
Experience, knowledge, stored in the brain as memory and response of memory, is thinking. This is very simple. It is a fact. You cannot think if there is no memory, if there is no knowledge, if there is no experience. So thinking is a process of time, because knowledge is a process of time and knowledge can never be complete. Therefore thought can never be complete; you must always be fragmented. So fear is the child of thought. So thought and time are the factors of fear.
Now, is thought different from time, or is thought time? Thought is a movement, is it not? It is a material process. Whatever thought has done is material. Your gods are created by thought, your rituals are created by thought. All the things that go on in the name of religion are created by thought. The gods, the gurus, everything is created by thought. Thought is limited, fragmented, because knowledge is limited, and all action then becomes limited. Where there is limitation, there must be fear. So we are asking, do thought and time work together or are they different? Or is there only thought which is divided as time, as progress, as evolution, as becoming? Sirs, please explore all this. Search out. Don't let your brains become dull by knowledge. Life is both intellect, emotion, senses. But if you let thought dominate them all, as you do, then our life becomes fragmented, shallow, empty.
We ought to talk over together what is love. Would you say that you love somebody, love without attachment, love without jealousy? If there is attachment, there is no love. If there is any kind of antagonism, hate, love cannot exist. Where there is fear, love cannot exist. Where there is ambition, love cannot exist; where there is power of any kind, the other cannot be. If you have power over your wife or if you possess your husband or if you are ambitious, then love is not. We are asking, do you love, because without love, suffering will go on. We have to search out, seek out whether there is a possibility of ending sorrow, because all these are linked together. Sorrow is not different from fear. Sorrow is not different from thought. Sorrow is not different from hate, the wounds, the psychological wounds that we receive. They are all related to each other. It is one issue, not separate issues. It is something that you have to approach wholly, not partially. But if you approach it intellectually, ideally or idealistically, romantically, then you don't see the wholeness of life. So we are searching out if there is a possibility of ending sorrow. Fear, pleasure and sorrow have existed from time beyond thought.
Man has always had these three factors in life - fear, the pursuit of pleasure and sorrow, and apparently he has not gone beyond that. He has tried every method, every system that you can think of, tried to suppress it, tried to escape from it, tried to invent the gods and surrender all this to that invention, but that has not worked either. So we must find out whether sorrow can end, whether we can understand the nature of sorrow, the causes of sorrow. Is the cause different from fear, is the cause different from pleasure, pleasure of achievement, pleasure of talent, pleasure of wealth? Let us find out whether sorrow and fear can ever end. The pursuit of pleasure is infinite, is endless, the pleasure of achievement, the pleasure of being attached to somebody, whether that attachment is to a person, to an idea or to a conclusion. While you are pursuing that pleasure, there is always the shadow of fear with it. Where there is fear, there is sorrow. But they are all together. They are all interrelated, and one must deal with them all wholly, not separately. Be clear that we are not dealing with sorrow separately as though it was something different from fear. We are looking, searching out the nature of sorrow and the ending of sorrow, because where there is sorrow, there is no love.
Sorrow expresses itself in so many ways - the sorrow of loneliness, the sorrow of seeing this vast country where there is poverty, corruption, utter disregard for another human being, carelessness. When you watch all this day after day, that is also sorrow, the utter neglect by all the politicians all over the world. They only want power, position, and where there is power, there is evil. And sorrow is the loss of someone you love. Sorrow of losing, sorrow of ending something you have cherished, something that you have held on to, the sorrow of doubt, the sorrow of seeing one's own life such an empty shell, meaningless existence. You may have money, sex, children, be very fashionable, rich, but it is an empty life. There is no depth in it. Seeing that, perceiving the nature of it, is also sorrow. So can sorrow end? It is not your sorrow. It is also mine and another's. Don't deal with sorrow as your particular precious stuff. It is shared by all humanity. Deal with it not as your particular sorrow, your private quiet sorrow, but as the sorrow of all human beings, whether you are a man or a woman, rich or poor, sophisticated or at the height of your excellence. Please don't deal with all these factors like fear, pleasure, sorrow, love, and so on as something separate from each other. You must approach this whole thing wholly, not fragmentarily. If you approach it fragmentarily, you will never solve it. So, look at greed, pain, sorrow, as a whole movement of life, not something different from life. This is our daily life. To find whether there is an end to all this - to misery, to conflict, pain, sorrow and fear - one must be able to perceive them, one must be able to be aware of them.
We must understand what is perception, how to look. Is the observer who looks at all this - the poverty, the loneliness, the anxiety, the uncertainty, the suffering - different from all that or is the observer all that? I will explain this. We have separated the `me', who is the observer, from that which he is observing. I say I am suffering and I say to myself that suffering must end, and to end it, I must suppress it, I must escape from it, I must follow a certain system. So, I am different from fear, from pleasure, from pain, sorrow. Are you different from all that? Or you may think that there is something in you which is totally different from all that. If you think that, it is part of your thought, and therefore there is nothing sacred there. So, is the observer different from the observed? When you are angry, envious, brutal, violent, are you not all that? The meditator is the meditation. Please sir, think about it. The observer is the observed. See the importance of this. Before, we have divided the observer from the observed. That means there is a division between that and the other. So, there was conflict. You could then control it, suppress it, fight it, but if you are that, if you are sorrow, if you are fear, if you are pleasure, you are the conglomeration of all this. To realize that fact is a tremendous reality; therefore, there is no division, and therefore there is no conflict; the observer is the observed.
Then a totally different action takes place, a totally different chemical action takes place. It is not an intellectual achievement, not the intellectual concept of the truth but to see the fact, the truth of it, that you are not different from your qualities, you are not different from your anger, jealousy, hatred, but you are all that, You know what happens when you realize that, not verbally but inwardly? Find out. Are you waiting for me to tell you? I won't. You see how your mind works. You are waiting for me to tell you; you don't want to find out. If I tell you, then you will say yes, right or wrong, but you will go on, but find out for yourself the actual truth of it, that the observer is the observed, the watcher is the watched, that you are the whole bundle of your consciousness, the content of your consciousness is what you are and the content of that consciousness is put together by thought. Now, to find out, not the ending of thought, but to find out how to observe the content, when you observe without the division, then a totally different action takes place. Where there is love, there is no observer. There is no you and the one that you love. There is only that quality of love.
J. Krishnamurti Mind Without Measure Talks in Bombay 4th Public Talk 30th January, 1983 `What is a Religious Mind?'
We ought to talk over together the significance of death, about what is religion and meditation. Before going into all that, I wonder if one is aware of what is happening to our minds, to our brain; if one is aware of the extraordinary things that the brain, which is the seat of thought, has brought about. Technologically we have progressed, advanced so rapidly, and psychologically our behaviour, our attitudes, our actions, are more or less un-evolved. We are still aggressive, brutal, cruel, thoughtless, for thousands and thousands of years. Apparently man is still behaving more or less as he behaved 40,000 years ago. If we had that same energy, that same intensity, as one used in the technological world, if we could go very, very deeply into ourselves and go beyond ourselves, the brain has infinite capacity there too. But very few have taken that journey, very few have gone into this question whether the mind, the brain, can ever be totally free, and therefore enquire very deeply, search out what lies beyond, if there is anything beyond thought.
Some of you perhaps have heard of genetic engineering. The genetic experts say that they assume a factor, a creative element, handed out from the father to the offspring, certain tendencies, qualities. `They are saying, since man has not changed for thousands of years, they assume that he can be changed through genetic interference. It is a very complex question which we are not going to discuss. But we must understand what is going on, that as human beings have not deeply changed their characteristics, their way of life, their violence, they are hoping through certain chemical process and so on to change the genes, the factors that transmit certain characteristics from the father to the son. Also we should consider what is happening in the computer world. We cannot neglect all this: the genetic engineering and what is happening in the computer world. They are trying to create a mechanical intelligence, ultimate intelligence through the computer which will then think much more rapidly, more accurately, and inform the robots what they should do. This is happening already and they are trying to bring about a machine, a computer, which has ultimate intelligence. So, there is on one side genetic engineering, on the other the computer acting as human beings, inventing generation after generation of computer, improving, and so on. I won't go into all that. So what is going to happen to the human mind? What is going to happen to us when the computer can do almost everything that we do? It can meditate, it can invent gods, much better gods than yours, it can inform, educate your children far better than the present teacher, and it will create a great deal of leisure for man. Are you understanding the nature of all this, the significance of all this? That is, what is going to happen to our minds? When the computer and genetic engineering are rapidly advancing, what is going to happen to us? We would have more leisure, the computer plus the robot will do a great many things that we are doing now in our factories, in our offices, and so on. Then man will have more leisure. How will he use that leisure? Please go into this with me for a while. If the computer can out-think you, remember far more than you do, calculate with such astonishing speed and give you leisure, either you pursue the path of pleasure which is entertainment - cinemas, religious entertainments, you know all the industry of entertainment, including the gurus - or psychological search, seeking out inwardly and finding out for oneself a tremendous area that is beyond all thought. These are the only two possibilities left for us - entertainment or delving into the whole structure of the psyche and acting. Now we are asking what is our human mind, our brain. We are going to find out for ourselves.
We first begin by asking what is the significance of death. It is the question of all humanity whether we are very young or very old. What is the meaning, the significance, of the extraordinary thing called death? Yesterday evening, we talked about several things including what is love, compassion; what is the relationship of life which is not only the whole human existence, what is its relationship to love, to death and to the whole search of man for thousands of years to find something that is beyond all thought. We have to understand the meaning of death because we are all going to die. That is absolute certainty. We are so afraid of it or we rationalize it. You say `yes', I accept it, I accept death as I accept pain, as I accept sorrow, as I accept loneliness; I also accept death, which is to submit, to suffer death, to allow the whole of existence of a human being to come to an end, either through disease, through old age or through some incident. We never find out while we are living what it means to die, to understand the depth of it. You are looking at it as an incident of life, as a fact of life, as violence is a fact of life, as hatred is a fact of life. If we are at all reasonable, sane, we must look at this question of death in similar manner, not accept it, not just say it is inevitable or try to find out what lies beyond death, but to observe the nature of dying.
What does death mean to most of us? Surely it means the ending, both organically and biologically, of all the things that we have held here, of all the wounds, pains, sacrifice, resistance, loneliness, despair - all that coming to an end, which means, either there is a continuity of the self, the `me', or the ending of the `me'. We said death is an ending. You can believe in reincarnation, as most of you perhaps do. If you do, you have to ask the question, what is it that continues? Is there a continuity or is there constant change - breaking, ending, beginning? If you believe - as most people perhaps in India believe - that you are going to be reborn, then what is it that is going to be reborn? Surely not the physical body, but if you believe in that, it is a continuity of what you are now, continuity of your beliefs, your activities, your greed, and so on, that is the bundle which is the consciousness, which is the self. That self, which is essentially consciousness, is put together by thought, your greed, your envy; your religious beliefs, superstitions, your anger, and so on; all those are the activities of thought. You are the result of a continuous movement of thought. If you believe in reincarnation and all that, you must find out if it is an illusion or a reality. If you are your name, your form, your ideas, your conclusions, your experiences, are they the factors of continuity as the `me' in the next life? What is that `me'?
Each one of us, we think, is a separate entity; we think we are so-called individuals. What is that individuality - the name, the form, what you remember, your attitudes, your loneliness, your pain, your anxiety, your chaos, your sorrow and uncertainty? You may live in a nice house or in a small room or a nice flat but you are all that. You are the bank account. When you are attached to a bank account, you are the bank account; when you are attached to a house, you are the house; when you are attached to your body, you are that. You may have lovely furniture, and it may be marvellous furniture, and if you are attached to that, you are that furniture. So you are all that. When you are attached to a chair, to a person, to an idea, to an ideal, to a personal experience, what are the implications of that attachment? Why are you attached, because death says you cannot be attached, that is the end of it. You may believe in the future, but death says you have ended, your attachment is over, your bank account is over, your guru and all your following is over. So what is it that continues, that is reborn - memories, ideas? Which is what? - something dead, or is there no continuity at all? Think, search out, please. Continuity means that which is going on modifying itself. You are becoming something, and achieving it and wanting more. Continuity implies security, certainty. Are you certain about anything? Is there security in your ideas? We want continuity. We hope to have continuity because, in continuity we thing there is security. One has been married for ten years, fifteen years or fifty years, there is certain continuity, but in that continuity there is conflict, misery, unhappiness, all the rest of that. So there is no continuity at all. There is constant change if you are aware of it. Either that can be superficial or a total mutation, change. That which has existed completely undergoes a change. One must find out for oneself what is the truth of this matter. One cannot be convinced by argument, by so-called evidence, and so on. One cannot be convinced of anything. One has to search out, seek and find what is true and what is illusion. We have lived with this illusion that we are separate entities, whereas if you examine very closely, your consciousness, which is you is shared by all humanity. They suffer as you suffer, they are as uncertain as you are; they are lonely, miserable, confused, anxious, as you are. So your consciousness is not yours. It is the consciousness of all humanity. You are the entire humanity. It is not mere logical conclusion or observation. That is a fact. We have been trained, educated, both religiously and educationally, that we are separate individuals. We are frightened that individuality should come to an end. With such a thought, such concept as an individual, when one approached the question of death, there is immense fear of ending. But if one sees the reality, the truth that you are the rest of mankind, then what is death?
Have you ever enquired what is the nature of ending, not ending to begin something, but ending? That is, you are attached, that is a common fact; attached to your children, attached to your husband, wife, attached to something or other. Death comes along and wipes away that attachment. You cannot carry your money to heaven. You may like to have it till the last moment, but you cannot take it with you, and death says no. So can we, while living understand the nature of attachment with all its fear, jealousy, anxiety, possessive feeling; while living, be free of attachment? While you are alive, to end something voluntarily, easily without any pressure, without any reward or punishment, to end, in that there is great beauty. Then one understands the nature of freedom. In the ending, there is a beginning, something new. There is an ending, and when there is an ending, there is that feeling of total freedom from all the burden that humanity has carried for centuries. You listen to all this, smile, nod your head and agree, but you will go on being attached. That is the easiest way, the most comforting and the most painful, but you will go on. And you call that practical. Whereas, if you understand the nature of ending, you end your ambition in a very, very competitive world, understand the ending of your arrogance, your pride, your status. When this so-called organism ends, the content of consciousness of humanity goes on unless you bring about a radical change in that consciousness, a mutation, so that you are no longer in that stream of selfishness; you are no longer caught, engaged, put in the prison of attachment, uncertainty, and so on. There is a totally different way of living.
Also we should talk about religion. It is a very complex question. Together we are going to find out a mind that is religious, not the mind that does puja, all the ceremonies, beliefs, and all that. That is not religion. Those are all the inventions of thought. God is your invention because you find life so dull, boring. It is such a pain. So you invent god who is all-perfect, all-loving; you worship that, and you worship that which you have put together by thought. So thought is deceiving you. But you will go on because you love to live in illusion. We must find out what is a religious mind, because a religious mind brings about a new world, a new civilization, a new culture, a new outburst of energy. One must find out for oneself what is a religious mind, not be told, not be directed, not be explained to. So what is a religious mind? You can only find out if you deny totally all the present religious structure, religious beliefs and ideas, because it is only a free mind that can find out what is the quality of the religious mind.
First of all, one can see very clearly that freedom is essential, not freedom from something. A prisoner wants freedom, which means first he is caught in a prison, then he wants freedom to leave that prison. That is only a reaction. That reaction is not freedom. Freedom implies the total ending of all illusions, of all beliefs, of all your accumulated wants, desires. A religious mind is a sane, healthy, factual mind; it faces facts, not ideas. The speaker can go on explaining what is a religious mind. Perhaps you will accept the definitions or deny the definitions; and merely arguing, analysing, questioning, may help, but it may not necessarily bring about a religious mind. So one has to have a great humility, a sense of not knowing. Also a religious mind acts, because it is compassionate. That action is born of intelligence. Intelligence, love, compassion, all go together. That is meditation. Don't suddenly sit up properly. That has no meaning. You may sit cross-legged, breathe properly, practise various systems; that is not meditation.
We are going to enquire, search out for ourselves, what is meditation. The word `meditation means, according to a good dictionary, to ponder over, to think over, to look closely, to come in touch with, not something sublime invented by thought, but come close and touch your daily life. That is the ordinary dictionary meaning of that word `meditation. Also meditation implies measurement. That is the meaning of that word. So we begin by asking, why do we measure? What do we mean by measurement? Why is there in our mind and heart this constant measurement? Measurement means comparison. I compare myself with you, wanting to be like you, wanting to be like your guru, like your highest example, whatever it is. Why do we compare at all in life? We say we compare in order to make progress. We are always comparing. You are beautiful, I am not. I want to be as beautiful, as powerful as you are. We want to be as enlightened as you are. There is always this competition of comparison between us. We are never free of that movement, but if we are free, then what are we? Do you understand my question? Is it possible to be free of comparison, is it possible to end comparison? If you don't compare, then you throw away a great burden that has no reality. Because, then you are what you are. From there you can begin, but if you are always comparing, becoming somebody else, then you are fundamentally unhappy anxious, frightened, and all the rest of it. So please ask the question of yourself, whether you can live without comparison, without any form of measurement which is quite difficult, because we are trained, educated, convinced, that we are this but we will become that. The becoming is a form of measurement. To live without a single movement of measurement is part of meditation.
Most people who meditate follow various systems. Each one has his own guru and he has laid down certain systems of meditation, and you practise, repeat certain words over and over again and you call that meditation. When you repeat over and over again, what is happening to your brain? You become more and more dull. You become a machine and you think that is meditation. You will go on doing it in spite of what the speaker is saying. In enquiring what is meditation, there can be no system, no effort. Effort means conflict. Can you be free of systems, practice, realizing the fact that your brain, your senses, become dull? Can you be free of systems? Can the mind, the brain, realize what it means to follow somebody, to obey what somebody else tells you to do because he calls himself a guru? All those things have destroyed the beauty of a religious mind. Meditation is none of these things, yoga included. Then what is meditation? You want experience. You are craving for some strange experience, so-called spiritual experience. You have enough of experiences in this world, of pain, anxiety, sorrow, and you say we want something more, greater experience. Experience has nothing whatsoever to do with meditation. To experience, there must be an experiencer, and if there is an experiencer, that experiencer is the continuity of past memories which is the self. Meditation is the understanding of the whole structure of the `me', the self, the ego, and whether it is possible to be totally free of the self, not seek some super-self. The super-self is still the self. So meditation is something which is not a cultivated, determined, activity. There must be freedom, and where there is freedom, there is space. Have we space apart from the physical world? Have we, living in Bombay, space? Hardly. We live in a little flat or a little room, and our minds gradually accept that little space. We are talking of space which has no walls. You know, when you look at the sea, when the smog has gone and you see the far horizon, the vast disc, and when you look up at the stars and see their extraordinary brightness and the vast space and the space that you have in your mind, how small it is, how narrow it is; that space in your heart and mind is so controlled, shaped, put together. There is hardly any space in you. To understand that which is sacred, there must be vast space in you, not out there in the sea. Space is not separation. Space is not division. When you divide, there is space between you and your wife, between you as India and another country, but that is not space. The space inwardly can only exist when there is no conflict whatsoever. Then when there is that vast limitless space of the mind, then only in that space there is energy, not the energy and friction of thought, because that energy is born out of freedom. When there is that space and silence and that immeasurable energy, then there is that which is utterly nameless, measureless, timeless; then there is that which is sacred. But to find that, one must have great love, great compassion, which must begin at home. You must love your wife, your children, your husband. Love cannot exist with attachment. If it is attachment, then you have all the problems of life. So, sirs and ladies, it is your life. Either you bring about a great radical, psychological revolution in yourself or the experts of the genetic world are going to make you do something. Then you will become merely machines. Then life will have very little meaning. But there is great significance, great meaning, if you are aware what love is, compassion and intelligence. Then out of that comes great silence and vast space. All that cannot exist if there is any shadow of selfishness. And this is meditation, and not the repetition of words, not the discipline of will, but the discipline of order which comes when there is no conflict.